What CO said. I know a number of older people who like just the original Star Wars.
The more I watch the films the more I come round to Anchorhead's way of thinking. While ESB remains a superbly crafted film, I find it increasingly hard to stomach the big reveal when I watch it. I don't hate ROTJ: I simply find it disappointing. The only time I watch it is when I feel nostalgic, which isn't that often.
It is extremely difficult to imagine that there are some who dislike Empire, one of the finest science fiction films ever made.
As for disputing the plausibility of Vader being Luke's father... SERIOUSLY?
S_Matt said:
It is extremely difficult to imagine that there are some who dislike Empire, one of the finest science fiction films ever made.
As for disputing the plausibility of Vader being Luke's father... SERIOUSLY?
I have been wondering about this. I didn't know that it was never planned by George and I don't see why it matters. And I especially don't see how people who saw it at the cinema, after loving Star Wars; a fantasy movie - can have a problem with it. Especially if they were having no problem with it up to there.
The only thing I can think of to justify that attitude would be if they had access to George's intentions ahead of time (I don't know if that was or wasn't possible with whatever material was available to the public at the time).
*edit* By intentions, I mean to NOT have Vader as Luke's father.
Could be coincidence but Vader is "Father" in German....
S_Matt said:
Could be coincidence but Vader is "Father" in German....
Väter.
Oh, my bad, I confused it with the dutch.
S_Matt said:
It is extremely difficult to imagine that there are some who dislike Empire, one of the finest science fiction films ever made.
As for disputing the plausibility of Vader being Luke's father... SERIOUSLY?
SMatt, you're not thinking like a 'casual moviegoer' you are thinking like a SW fan.
Now my brothers friends think ESB is a good movie, but most casual moviegoers don't like sequels, (Hence why 99% of sequels gross less then the original).
I had this conversation with my brothers friends a few years ago at a party (they were born in 1965 or 66), and I was suprised at their opinions on the sequels. They laughed at Jedi when I brought it up, and thought Empire was a well crafted movie but thought it was a bit too much with the Vader reveal. Plus they were still mad it didn't have an ending in 1980.
These are casual movie goers who aren't SW diehards like us, so they don't care about the Saga, or the Classic Trilogy, they just went and saw the movies in 77, 80, 83 like most people, and that was their opinion.
Check out the grosses of the SW movies (adjusted for inflation and without counting re-releases), SW'77 outgrosses Empire and Jedi by a large amount.
CO said:
S_Matt said:
It is extremely difficult to imagine that there are some who dislike Empire, one of the finest science fiction films ever made.
As for disputing the plausibility of Vader being Luke's father... SERIOUSLY?
SMatt, you're not thinking like a 'casual moviegoer' you are thinking like a SW fan.
Now my brothers friends think ESB is a good movie, but most casual moviegoers don't like sequels, (Hence why 99% of sequels gross less then the original).
These are casual movie goers who aren't SW diehards like us, so they don't care about the Saga, or the Classic Trilogy, they just went and saw the movies in 77, 80, 83 like most people, and that was their opinion.
Check out the grosses of the SW movies (adjusted for inflation and without counting re-releases), SW'77 outgrosses Empire and Jedi by a large amount.
Don't patronize me - I know a bit about film grosses. But I don't think sequels gross less because people don't like them - its just that you can never recreate the novelty of something like the original Star Wars. And its understandable why Empire would have taken less - its not exactly a cheerful, feel-good movie like the first one. Its substantially more cerebral and existential too, rather introspective in tone and visually subdued. Of course these features are what make it so well regarded these days.
And well, Jedi made the least because it was bit of a drop in quality story wise and the third one out, and repeated two of the principle locations and main plot direction from the first film and of course, by 1983, big budget fantasy and sci fi extravaganzas were commonplace so Jedi was less distinctive in the market than Star Wars had been 6 years earlier.
In any case, in the last decade it has become increasingly common for sequels to outgross originals.
And to my mind, I feel that casual moviegoers who have less investment in the story are less likely to question plot developments than those who do. They wouldn't care enough about the movie to care whether Vader was Luke's father or not.
My challenge to those who don't buy Vader being Luke's father is to actually come up with a good argument against it, and you'll have to do better than "But Obi-Wan said" or "George Lucas never intended".
S_Matt said:
Don't patronize me - I know a bit about film grosses. But I don't think sequels gross less because people don't like them - its just that you can never recreate the novelty of something like the original Star Wars.
In any case, in the last decade it has become increasingly common for sequels to outgross originals.
And to my mind, I feel that casual moviegoers who have less investment in the story are less likely to question plot developments than those who do. They wouldn't care enough about the movie to care whether Vader was Luke's father or not.
My challenge to those who don't buy Vader being Luke's father is to actually come up with a good argument against it, and you'll have to do better than "But Obi-Wan said" or "George Lucas never intended".
You gotta relax, I can only tell ya what they told me:) Its not my opinion as I love ESB!
Now that is not the sole reason they are not big fans of ESB, that was just one quibble they had because I asked them about it. I know they said the Yoda parts were slow and boring too. These are the same people who think the Rocky Sequels are ridiculous, and Jaws and Indiana Jones sequels are ridiculous. These guys probably aren't going to like any sequels, so ESB was just another sequel to them that didn't live up to the original.
S_Matt said:
My challenge to those who don't buy Vader being Luke's father is to actually come up with a good argument against it, and you'll have to do better than "But Obi-Wan said" or "George Lucas never intended".
I agree, for Star Wars fans. But CO is relating real experiences of those regular cinema-goers he was talking about. And this thread is about Return of the Jedi :)
doubleKO said:
And this thread is about Return of the Jedi :)
You're right. Back on topic.............
Well... actually if Chewtobacca wants to weigh in one more time about why he finds it increasingly hard to stomach the reveal, my curiosity is piqued. I think the reveal may have just become somewhat cliched in and of itself. How many times have you seen it referenced or lampooned in one media or another...
AND THEN BACK TO JEDI!
CO said:
You gotta relax, I can only tell ya what they told me:) Its not my opinion as I love ESB!
Sorry about that - didn't mean to bite your head off for relating a personal anecdote about perceptions of the films.
As for Jedi - I think if Lucas had stuck to the original plan to use Wookiees instead of Ewoks then there wouldn't be this nagging voice in the back of the audience's heads saying "Some stone age teddy bears defeated 'an entire legion' of the Emperor's 'best troops' - yeah, right"
I would also have meant that the accusations that the film was compromised creatively by the need to work in merchandising opportunities would have been less, or even nil.
While Wookiees achieving the same function in the plot as the Ewoks did might not have been entirely plausible either at least its not so implausible you reject entire premise.
So Jedi's problem, in a nutshell, is it breaks the suspension of disbelief that the first two films sometimes merely stretched.
Wookies tearing peoples arms out of their sockets, some pacing changes, dealing with what you can from Bingowings' post about things that don't make sense - it might have been a worthier successor to Empire. I thought it was oh-so-clever of George when I was young. Wookie -> Ewo(o)k. "Instead of making them tall with long fur, I made them short with short fur". Genius :(
When I was a kid, it was ESB>ANH>>>ROTJ
Now, it's ESB>ANH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ROTJ
....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. prequels
^ Ratings out of four balls, please.
doubleKO said:
Wookies tearing peoples arms out of their sockets, some pacing changes, dealing with what you can from Bingowings' post about things that don't make sense - it might have been a worthier successor to Empire. I thought it was oh-so-clever of George when I was young. Wookie -> Ewo(o)k. "Instead of making them tall with long fur, I made them short with short fur". Genius :(
The technology was not there in 82' to create a wookie "army" .
At least not of any significant size(say compared to the digital armies as seen in Lord Of The Rings or the Phantom menace)
The costs of kitting up at least 20 extras with the same kind of costume that Mayhew wore would have been quite expensive(I assume).
I think it was more economical(both financially and in terms of time consumption) to create 30-40( I am guessing here--it may have been less) ewok costumes.
And from a story telling point of view, given the wookies superior physical strength as well as their technological prowess(established in the 1st 2 films); they would have been perceived by the audience as being too strong for the stormtroopers.
The Ewoks for all their faults, were the underdogs.
And people tend to forget that back in 83' the emotional impact for the audience (I should know--I was one of them)of seeing the storm troopers really getting their asses kicked(for the 1st time in 3 films) was exciting.
It was the same with Luke forcing Vader("Never!!") back in the saber duel.
For 2 films vader had beaten the shit out of both Ben and Luke.
To see him being subdued in the 3rd film was(at the time of it's release) was where the audience got to effectively have emotional payback(John William's music accentuated this moment superbly).
That sensation cannot be replicated when viewing the film in 2011 for the 100th time!
(Unless you have never seen it before and you are seeing it for the 1st time)
I saw Star Wars in 1977. Many, many, many times. For 3 years it was just Star Wars...period. I saw it in good theaters, cheap theaters and drive-ins with those clunky metal speakers you hang on your window. The screen and sound quality never subtracted from the excitement. I can watch the original cut right now, over 30 years later, on some beat up VHS tape and enjoy it. It's the story that makes this movie. Nothing? else.
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SkAZxd-5Hp8
^ Sorry but I can't agree with any of this. Are you telling me that after Star Wars and Empire (the merchandising especially) that George didn't have enough MONEY to make more wookiee costumes and find tall people? To conform to his ORIGINAL VISION? Bleh. He paid some mega-fine just so he could put the credits at the end didn't he? And being too strong for stormtroopers would have made it seem a hell of a lot more plausible than it was.
*edit* I know his reasoning was that he had established Chewie as a more advanced creature, and that he wanted the ewoks to be primitive, but that is a lame excuse.
@doubleKO
Oh I am pretty sure it could have been done.
But there would have been no sense of scale.
It would have just been 20 extras dressed up as wookies.(and in some ways ...it would have bore too much of a resemblance to Planet Of The Apes.
As an example, look at the making of Lord of the rings.
In the battle of the pelenor fields.
They filmed Viggo Mortensen(Aragorn) killing a bunch of extras of orcs(men in rubber suits) against a blue screen.
It looks lame.
But in the finished film with a CGI filled backdrop of 1000's of digital orcs it looks awesome!That is what gives this scene a sense of scale.
That technology was not there in 83'.
+ I don't recall any of us back in 83' clamouring for a Wookie finale.
That vibe to the best of my knowledge has only surfaced in the post CGI 90's/2000's were audiences/fans are so used to seeing digital armies on huge scales that they fantasize what Return Of The Jedi would have been like with a huge wookie army.
I saw Star Wars in 1977. Many, many, many times. For 3 years it was just Star Wars...period. I saw it in good theaters, cheap theaters and drive-ins with those clunky metal speakers you hang on your window. The screen and sound quality never subtracted from the excitement. I can watch the original cut right now, over 30 years later, on some beat up VHS tape and enjoy it. It's the story that makes this movie. Nothing? else.
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SkAZxd-5Hp8
doubleKO said:
^ Ratings out of four balls, please.
I like this new guy. He's already using OT.com off-topic memes.
IIRC, it wasn't until the Making of a Saga documentary that Lucas mentioned it was originally going to be Wookiees, which aired around 1985. I'm unsure if he ever mentioned it publicly prior to that.
There were over 70 little people playing Ewoks in the film. Finding an equal number of tall people to play Wookiees really should not have been as difficult. (Think basketball players!) And only the costumes that are going to be in closeups have to as detailed as Peter Mayhew's. Only a handful of Ewok masks even had any articulation.
As for creating the illusion of a large Wook army in 1983, there were ways to accomplish this with opticals, camera angles, and just clever editing. There weren't that many guys in rebel uniforms standing around at the end of Star Wars. And how many knights do you think you see charging at the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail? ;)
Where were you in '77?
I don't really get the obsession with a Wookiee army over a band of Ewoks.
The Ewoks could have worked fine if A) better quality costumes were made for the foreground characters (with heads that fitted and eyes that didn't look like glass beads) B) they were given more of a culture instead of being largely being the receiving end of jokes C) we saw evidence that they were already successfully taking on the Empire and this was being covered up (presumably to avoid getting a visit from Vader or some other similarly ruthless enforcer).
If we saw a village with totems made out of wrecked Imperial tech and Stormtrooper armour and maybe some half eaten stormies the cute little teddybears would suddenly look like the sort of creatures who could help the Rebels take on an entire legion of the Emperor's best.
While we are on the subject a legion is about 3-6 thousand troops (and that's on top of the troops that would be expected to be there guarding such an important base).
If Lucas can make us believe in a space battle with hundreds of different looking ships why does he find it so hard to make us believe in a ground battle with thousands of troops who all look exactly the same?
All you would need would be one amazing reveal sequence and then use the same troops in different areas of the forest (or inside the base itself) being picked off, over and over again.
SilverWook said:
IIRC, it wasn't until the Making of a Saga documentary that Lucas mentioned it was originally going to be Wookiees, which aired around 1985. I'm unsure if he ever mentioned it publicly prior to that.
There were over 70 little people playing Ewoks in the film. Finding an equal number of tall people to play Wookiees really should not have been as difficult. (Think basketball players!) And only the costumes that are going to be in closeups have to as detailed as Peter Mayhew's. Only a handful of Ewok masks even had any articulation.
As for creating the illusion of a large Wook army in 1983, there were ways to accomplish this with opticals, camera angles, and just clever editing. There weren't that many guys in rebel uniforms standing around at the end of Star Wars. And how many knights do you think you see charging at the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail? ;)
yeah mate,you make good points.
having said that,hypothetically,with that many wookies occupying the final 3rd of the film the aesthetic of the movie would have felt more in the line of Planet Of The Apes or even dare I say it---the Christmas Special!
Having Chewbacca by himself feeding off other different types of characters is fine.
But once you have more than 1 wookie or a bunch of wookies all growling and howling at each other(Think The Christmas special or ROTS) it just turns alters the tone of what Star wars is about(In my opinion).
Also we were already familiar with Wookies as an alien species by 83'.
A bunch of Ewoks was something different.
And sure,clever editing may have compensated for the lack of volume(of rebel soldiers),but that scene only lasted 3 minutes!
The wookies would have had to occupy far more screen time.
And in order to carry the dramatic weight of their impact you need more than just clever editing in order to supend the audience's disbelief.
I saw Star Wars in 1977. Many, many, many times. For 3 years it was just Star Wars...period. I saw it in good theaters, cheap theaters and drive-ins with those clunky metal speakers you hang on your window. The screen and sound quality never subtracted from the excitement. I can watch the original cut right now, over 30 years later, on some beat up VHS tape and enjoy it. It's the story that makes this movie. Nothing? else.
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SkAZxd-5Hp8
Bingowings said:
I don't really get the obsession with a Wookiee army over a band of Ewoks.
The Ewoks could have worked fine if A) better quality costumes were made for the foreground characters (with heads that fitted and eyes that didn't look like glass beads) B) they were given more of a culture instead of being largely being the receiving end of jokes C) we saw evidence that they were already successfully taking on the Empire and this was being covered up (presumably to avoid getting a visit from Vader or some other similarly ruthless enforcer).
If we saw a village with totems made out of wrecked Imperial tech and Stormtrooper armour and maybe some half eaten stormies the cute little teddybears would suddenly look like the sort of creatures who could help the Rebels take on an entire legion of the Emperor's best.
While we are on the subject a legion is about 3-6 thousand troops (and that's on top of the troops that would be expected to be there guarding such an important base).
If Lucas can make us believe in a space battle with hundreds of different looking ships why does he find it so hard to make us believe in a ground battle with thousands of troops who all look exactly the same?
All you would need would be one amazing reveal sequence and then use the same troops in different areas of the forest (or inside the base itself) being picked off, over and over again.
Well the Ewoks were going to eat Luke,Han and Chewie alive!
The problem with huge battles on large scales is that you lose sight of the individuals.
This is a problem that effected Return Of The King.
It got away with it because it looked cool especially in 2003. Seeing Return Of The King now in 2011 it does not carry anywhere near the same power (for me personally--seeing it the other night I focused more on the individuals within the battle as opposed to being overwhelmed by the jaw dropping visuals----and because of this I found it severly lacking in punch.)
I obviously have to qualify this again by stating that it is solely in my opinion---but ROTJ(over 28 years) holds up better over time than ROTK has(in just 9 years)
In the final 3rd of ROTJ, the focus is explicitly on Han and co with the Ewoks providing the back drop.
Combined with the best crafted space battle (even to this day) and Luke's emotional confrontation with Vader + Palpatine----that is what made ROTJ work for the audiences back in 83.
I saw Star Wars in 1977. Many, many, many times. For 3 years it was just Star Wars...period. I saw it in good theaters, cheap theaters and drive-ins with those clunky metal speakers you hang on your window. The screen and sound quality never subtracted from the excitement. I can watch the original cut right now, over 30 years later, on some beat up VHS tape and enjoy it. It's the story that makes this movie. Nothing? else.
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SkAZxd-5Hp8
Bingowings said:
I don't really get the obsession with a Wookiee army over a band of Ewoks.
The Ewoks could have worked fine if A) better quality costumes were made for the foreground characters (with heads that fitted and eyes that didn't look like glass beads) B) they were given more of a culture instead of being largely being the receiving end of jokes C) we saw evidence that they were already successfully taking on the Empire and this was being covered up (presumably to avoid getting a visit from Vader or some other similarly ruthless enforcer).
If we saw a village with totems made out of wrecked Imperial tech and Stormtrooper armour and maybe some half eaten stormies the cute little teddybears would suddenly look like the sort of creatures who could help the Rebels take on an entire legion of the Emperor's best.
While we are on the subject a legion is about 3-6 thousand troops (and that's on top of the troops that would be expected to be there guarding such an important base).
If Lucas can make us believe in a space battle with hundreds of different looking ships why does he find it so hard to make us believe in a ground battle with thousands of troops who all look exactly the same?
All you would need would be one amazing reveal sequence and then use the same troops in different areas of the forest (or inside the base itself) being picked off, over and over again.
Some of us just like Wookiees more than Ewoks. ;)
I like the idea of a coverup on the Endor situation. Kind of like how Rabban was covering up how badly things were going on Arrakis?
Ever since I noticed an Ewok waving a Stormtrooper blaster in one shot, I've wondered what got left on the cutting room floor. There are a few unused Endor battle shots in the second Ewok movie.
Where were all the Imperial Walkers during the final battle anyway? If there was only one on the whole moon, the crew who brought Luke to Vader must have gotten really lost!
Where were you in '77?