Motion Control & Physical Models

DISCLAIMER: Most of you are far more knowledgeable than me. That's why this post will ask a lot of questions and not give a lot of answers. Hooray internet-enabled collaboration!

There's been a lot of talk over in the Fan Edit section about how to recut and reshape the PT into less-terrible movies. As folks like RedLetterMedia have explained, the chief problems in the PT are the story, the directing and the dialogue.

I have heard, however, some talk about how nearly everything in the PT is CG. Perhaps some Fan Edits (*cough* Revisted *cough*) might someday work on replacing the CG with physical elements when possible, such as having men in Clone Trooper suits, an idea Lucas bizarrely eschewed.

But what about all those spaceships? Is replacing any of those justified? What would be required to do that? Obviously quality models would be needed, and that is a large field that a lot of hobbyists on the internet are already taking care of, whether or not they have Fan Edits in mind. The ability to make quality physical models of spaceships exists.

But getting footage of those models, as far as I can tell, would require a motion control camera system. Digital compositing doesn't seem to be the problem, as it really is just blue-screened footage and there are people that know how to handle that - but getting that footage is an issue.

What would it take to make a motion control camera? Any and all knowledge, speculation, etc is welcome. You can even talk about prices and how they're too high or within reach or whatever, because this is a brainstorming thread and not an announcement that I have any intention of purchasing these things. I just thought the discussion was a good idea.

Interesting topic. Regarding a motion control camera, AFAIK it's basically a camera mounted on a guide that will always repeat the same movement, programmed by a computer, something many of us can do today with any piece of junk. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivX-euthLSU

or a dedicated project, like this one I found:

http://vimeo.com/5537337

If this project doesn't get more attention, it's cancelled!

I'm kidding, I'm kidding!

Found this today - http://openmoco.org/ - Looks like just the sort of thing I wanted.

If this project doesn't get more attention, it's cancelled!

I'm kidding, I'm kidding!

hmm sounds like a cheap shot at somebody.... who could that be? i wonder..

really would anyone go this far? i suppose if someone really had this big of an obsession with star wars recreating spaceship scenes would be fairly easy. we are talking about 1970's style film making here. as far as getting the homies to dress up in storm trooper suits idk. but building camera tracks to film model ships you could do that with some construx dude. and surly there are software filters to make digital video appear as 16mm. to say it would be easy may be far fetched but possible yes indeed probable no......... oh wait someone already did this!!! or does robot chicken count? and you dont need to build good models just go to skywalker ranch break in and steal the originals..... oh wait that was fanboys... my bad.

duct tape a tripod to a beagle and teach him to walk in circles. instant 360 degree pan shots. and for tai fighter scenes teach him to roll over...

ibleedspeed said:

hmm sounds like a cheap shot at somebody.... who could that be? i wonder..

Sorry man, I hope you're not too offended.

As for Motion Control and model work, it's more complex than it sounds at first.

building camera tracks to film model ships you could do that with some construx dude

It's not just having tracks. As I understand it, in order to composite multiple model shots together, you film each model separately (or maybe a group of them....maybe) and then stick the shots together. The camera has to either move in exactly the same way for each different model if the ships (assuming these are ships) are moving together or in very precisely different ways in order to achieve the illusion of motion. Having tracks is a good start, but then the motion along those tracks has to be the exact same constant speed each time, or the speed has to very in exactly the same way for each pass. You need precise, repeatable control.

Furthermore, it's not just a matter of a track - Optimally you want several axes of control so you can roll, tilt, etc your camera in any direction. Otherwise your ships are going to be very limited in how they move. And of course each of those axes needs to be precisely controlled.

we are talking about 1970's style film making here

We're talking about groundbreaking 70s special effects with a budget. Their camera had 7 axes of control, which is a lot more than 1 track.

duct tape a tripod to a beagle and teach him to walk in circles. instant 360 degree pan shots. and for tai fighter scenes teach him to roll over...

I don't even....

I couldn't find a better photo than that, unfortunately, but the model is completely still, on a rod, and the camera does all the motion. There's a track, and on the track is a platform, and on the platform looks to be a second, shorter track, and on that is a turntable, and on that is the counterweighted-arm system, and at the end of that are more axes of movement.

no worrys man i can take a punch with the best of em and its not like i didnt have that coming.  but for real dude that is a big set of construx. and some old electric race car tracks:) and duct tape is every riggers best friend. sure a rig like that costs thousands but with some bill nye skills and a home depot gift card from aunti carol a guy could put together a working contraption that would be able to emulate some of the movements. small motors and actuators can be had cheaply and todays cameras are smaller and lighter .or you could just break into a tv studio take a few hostages and maybe end up with the real thing. or die trying to recreate the 3 movies lucas ruined.i got 10 dollars that says lucas tries to make up for it 1 day and makes it even worse. i can think of only 1 director in modern days with the skill and balls to use models in his movies."quentin terrentino" <mispelled?  example the planes in kill bill. how awesome did that look?

I would love to see you try that. Partly because I don't think you'll be convinced that it won't work until you see it for yourself and partly because I'd love for you to be right, for it to be easy & cheap.

I think there's a reason the folks at openmoco.org talk about servos and stepper motors. It's just not simple.

i was half kidding.. i agree it would not be easy. but lets think for a second about the world of custom built motorcycles. a person with above average mechanical fabrication skills,the right tools could do this for a fraction of the cost of a studio rig. am i convinced it can be done? hell yeah!! have a look.       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgIv1q7zqlA

this is just the first 1 i saw. there are more. btw that is a ladder he used for the track. this rig could be built for about $1000.00 us. the kid that built it wanted to sell it for $5000.

this dolly has rollerblade wheels.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juQY_9KvHMs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LInj6nPP1pA&feature=related

here is a prime example of a home cheapo rigger. notice that these are kids building these things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pvfj0Q_MDs&NR=1

want cheaper yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIkL2Anv1uk&feature=related

your only limited to your own creative mojo.

and 1 more this ones a little ghetto but none the less you can see my point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nAC6ztIUbQ&feature=related

oh and this 1 i lmfao.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWN9TvweZc8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_vvQ8dR2z8&feature=related

   this 1 is sick! carbon fiber is lighter then alloy. mounted to a track dolly this pan and tilt rig would do it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyeCTs5MJOs&NR=1&feature=fvwp

so to recap. what do you need to do it? aluminum,wood,screws n bolts, cutting and drilling tools, motors,actuators, springs,pvc pipe,,tripods,some kind of controllor, a lot of spare time, and a beagle with some duct tape! i used to build rc cars and can tell you that model grade servos are a bitch. but with the automotive customizing revolution came tons of company's offering affordable electric actuators. i have a project underway in my car for a motorized trunk lid. lexus used the cheapest trunklid struts known to man and they gave out so now i have a yardstick to hold my trunk open. this prompted me to look into actuators. i found a company online offering 150 lb lift electronic actuators for about $100 bucks each. they had all sizes down to like a 3" extension. and had a line of high grade servo's too that i just glanced at. there is a large market for hobby robotics and with that plenty of company's making all kinds of fabrication materials. i have always had a fondness for film making which started in the early 90's when i was a daily skateboarder my friends and i lugged around a 20 lb vhs camera in a suitcase to film our skating. these days i dont even own a camera but i always keep an eye out for a good deal on a 3chip. if i had the $ and the time i would be looking into making indy films. and the first thing on the equipment list would be mocos and dolly's home made of course the only way any indy film maker can do it. look at robert rodriguez. the man made el mariachi with like $ 7k in mexico and ended up being 1 of the elite hollywood directors. so if i ever come into a sum of cash i will take you up on that challenge.

what happened to tim? the thread was just getting started.

When I have more to say, I suppose I will

allrighty then its your thread mate.