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Dolby surround versus 5.1

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Something that has been bothering me for some time: what exactly is changed when a film with an original Dolby SR track is released in 5.1? Dolby SR is essentially 4.0 (Left, Center, Right, Surround) mixed onto a stereo track and restored with a receiver from what I understand.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
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Properly done, it is a new mix, frequently from the original elements that allows the audio engineer to expand the sound field and enhance the older mix.

That said, it isn't always done properly.

Don't mistake a commercial remaster for what we enthusiasts do: pushing the audio through a DPL decoder, saving the separate channels and encoding it as 5.1.

Dr. M

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The down-mix on my AVR retains the stereo surround and the LFE.1 condensed into 2 channels but it’s hard to tell when the stereo surrounds are active and inactive or how soft or loud they are. LFE.1 plays at different level, when it’s played as Dolby discrete it can sound a bit damn loud and needs a leash on it, to hold it back or balance EQ the levels.

SR in the cinema is still the best analogue sound you could hear! Dolby type A is also good sounding, but not used anymore hence the term Dolby SR-D.

Lots of now and then Dolby type A and SR cards turn up on fleabay, but some are wanting you to bid, no thanks. Some, sale them off at practically give away prices.

 

 

Only the originals from the 70mm six-track Dolby stereo Dolby format 42 will sound better on DVD/Bluray.

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Doctor M said:

Don't mistake a commercial remaster for what we enthusiasts do: pushing the audio through a DPL decoder, saving the separate channels and encoding it as 5.1.

I remember when I first suggested this (and then, ultimately, did it.) and being laughed at for it.  ;)

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Dolby Stereo/SR mixes are made with the intention of being played back upmixed from matrixed two-channel.  As such, compromises may be made in order to achieve the best possible sound in this configuration.  I noticed that all of the 35mm stereo mixes for the SW films have significantly narrower stereo imaging than the 1993 versions, which was most likely done to reduce the amount of unwanted crosstalk into the surround, particularly since upmixing was not nearly as sophisticated in those days.

Some recent Bluray releases have been including 4.0 mixes, which are direct copies of the discrete tracks the SR versions are made from.  However, they will not sound exactly the same as the two-channel versions, and according to Dolby documentation may not represent the intentions of the mixers completely, since the matrixing adjustments are still there but not combining the way they would have.  Still, that's probably a fairly subtle point on the whole.

5.1 configuration would be relatively easy to obtain from this 4.0, either by having the surrounds play the same thing or by introducing panning into the rears as appropriate.  The LFE channel is trickier to derive, and on principle Dolby discourages the creation of additional bass by copying and augmenting what is present in the main channels, since it can introduce phase cancellation or other errors, particularly when dealing with an upmix.  LFE should be created by separate access to the sound effects.

I ran into this exact problem in doing the SW 70mm.  For the most part I used the discrete LFE of the '97 and '04 mixes, but in a few cases chose to go with bass from the '93 versions because they just sounded better combined with the mains, but the level and phase required adjustment to come out sounding correct.  So I guess you could say I knowingly went against Dolby's guidelines occasionally.  ;)

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The Alien and Aliens Blu-Rays have 4.1 mixes on their theatrical cuts.  Anyone know if those are 70mm six-track mixes, or Dolby Surround discrete mixes?

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Nice to see that it was actually encoded as 4.1.

So would it be possible to create a hybrid 4.1 track by adding the 97 LFE to the 97 LD Stereo surround PCM?

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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Well, sure, but why would you want to do that?  The 97 stereo is just a down-mix of the 97 5.1 anyway.

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Ah, that makes sense I suppose.  I don't know if you can have an LFE channel on an LPCM track, though (at least for standard DVD).

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 (Edited)

ChainsawAsh said:

The Alien and Aliens Blu-Rays have 4.1 mixes on their theatrical cuts.  Anyone know if those are 70mm six-track mixes, or Dolby Surround discrete mixes?

Don't really get what you mean by Dolby Surround discrete mixes, but those 4.1 tracks are the 70mm six-track mixes, Dolby Surround only contains 2 discrete channels and the correct terminology for that is Dolby Digital 2.0 Surround.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com