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Happy Valentine's Day! — Page 4

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Valentine's Day like so many other 'card days' is celebrated in much the same way all around the parts of the world where these things are sold.

It's not anti-American to look down on it any more than it is pro-American to buy into it.

Most of the items people are pressed to buy on 'card days' aren't made in the USA even if you buy them in the USA for someone in the USA.

I like much of America the place, I've liked most of the Americans I've met and interacted with on the internet, the politics and some of the sports are confusing and weird to me but that's nothing compared to the same in my own country, many of the arts and produce of America suit my taste.

I'm on a Star Wars centred discussion board that is a largely American enterprise...what are we talking about again?

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Warbler said:

Valentine's Day is not about buying love, its about show love.   One way you show love is buying gifts.    Just about every holiday is commercialized, especially Christmas.    Should we hate every holiday?

Although I see what Bingo and Gaffer are getting at, and I definitely think there's some truth to the observation that Valentine's Day is over-commercialized, nonetheless I'm inclined to agree with Warb on this one. Valentine's Day is as meaningful as you want to make it. Personally, I choose to see it as a special occasion on which to buy my wife flowers and candy, not an artificial obligation to do so. Of course, I don't consider it a hassle to buy gifts for my wife in the first place...

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Do you need a special day to do that though?

I'm sure if you saw something your wife would really like and you could afford it you would buy it regardless of the day of the year.

Valentine's Day was originally a day to anonymously declare affection for someone in the hope that with the Saint's intercedence the message will be correctly interpreted and requited. There is hardly any of those aspects left in the current 'card day'.

Christmas was originally a series of pagan festivals like Yule to see people through the middle and hardest days of the winter and it still has aspects of that even if it has been overly commercialised.

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Scotland, Sol 3, Mutters Spiral, late 20th Century.

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Akwat Kbrana said:  Valentine's Day is as meaningful as you want to make it.

I agree with you 100%

Bingowings said:

Do you need a special day to do that though?

what is wrong with having a special day to do it?   Are you now going disparage the celebration of birthdays and anniversaries and what not? 

Bingowings said:

I'm sure if you saw something your wife would really like and you could afford it you would buy it regardless of the day of the year.

not everyone can afford the buy gifts every single day of the year.   That is why we have special days of the year to buy them.    If you gave gifts every day,  they wouldn't be special anymore.

Bingowings said:

Valentine's Day was originally a day to anonymously declare affection for someone in the hope that with the Saint's intercedence the message will be correctly interpreted and requited. There is hardly any of those aspects left in the current 'card day'.

part of that is because not everyone is Catholic and therefore not everyone believes in the Saints.     However as Akwat  said:

Valentine's Day is as meaningful as you want to make it.

 

Bingowings said:

Christmas was originally a series of pagan festivals like Yule to see people through the middle and hardest days of the winter and it still has aspects of that even if it has been overly commercialised.

funny I always thought it had something to do with a certain being's birth.

 

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Warbler said:



Gaffer Tape said:

Sorry.  I just happen to agree with Bingo that it's a commercialized, guilt-tripping mess of a holiday with little redeeming qualities in its current form.  Case in point:  those terrible, terrible jewelry commercials I mentioned yesterday.  That's all that Valentine's Day is about now:  buying love. 


Valentine's Day is not about buying love, its about show love.   One way you show love is buying gifts.    Just about every holiday is commercialized, especially Christmas.    Should we hate every holiday?

I smell a red herring*... while Bingo's sense of humor doesn't usually agree with (I can't really speak for his opinions), jumping to a large claim such as that is never a strong argumentative technique.

*I may be misusing the term "red herring", but it's the closest I can remember to a technical term for using extremities

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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 (Edited)

bkev said:

 

Warbler said:



Gaffer Tape said:

Sorry.  I just happen to agree with Bingo that it's a commercialized, guilt-tripping mess of a holiday with little redeeming qualities in its current form.  Case in point:  those terrible, terrible jewelry commercials I mentioned yesterday.  That's all that Valentine's Day is about now:  buying love. 


Valentine's Day is not about buying love, its about show love.   One way you show love is buying gifts.    Just about every holiday is commercialized, especially Christmas.    Should we hate every holiday?

I smell a red herring*... while Bingo's sense of humor doesn't usually agree with (I can't really speak for his opinions), jumping to a large claim such as that is never a strong argumentative technique.

*I may be misusing the term "red herring", but it's the closest I can remember to a technical term for using extremities

 

I fail to see a red herring anywhere in what I said.   Bingo seems to hate Valentines Day because it is over commercialized, so is just about every other holiday.   Therefore I asked "should we hate everyone other holiday as well"?   what is wrong with logic I used?   I think you are misusing the term.

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I think the logical fallacy you're looking for is slippery slope rather than red herring, bkev.

Do you need a special day to do that though?

Well, no, I don't really need one. But neither am I against the idea. I guess my point is this: if you don't like Valentine's Day and think that it's a vulgar over-commercialized contrivance, then you're certainly free not to celebrate it. But for those who do celebrate it, like I said before, it's as meaningful as they care to make it.

I'm not making any blanket-statement either for or against Valentine's Day. I'm just saying that choosing to participate doesn't automatically equal crass commercialization.

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Akwat Kbrana said:

I think the logical fallacy you're looking for is slippery slope rather than red herring, bkev.

I still fail to see where I've committed any logical fallacy. 

if:

A: Bingo hates holidays that are over-commercialized

and:

B: most holidays are over-commercialized

if must follow that:

C: Bingo hates most holidays.  

I see no logical fallacy in that.

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Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that you did commit the fallacy, only that that's probably the one bkev was thinking of...

Every 27th customer will get a ball-peen hammer, free!

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I believe it was slippery slope I was thinking of. Thanks, Akwat. I don't believe that must necessarily follow, but I'll wait for Bingo to pop in before I speak for him.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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 (Edited)

Warbler said :

what is wrong with having a special day to do it?   Are you now going disparage the celebration of birthdays and anniversaries and what not?

For myself yes to some extent, when I post here I post my personal opinions and I personally see the anniversary of my birth to be no different to any other day and I acknowledge Birthdays of people I know on the telephone, online or face to face if I see them (if I think they care to hear it) but I am more likely to buy that person something as and when I see something they hopefully really want based on what I know of the personal taste of recipient when I can afford it and give it to them when I see them. I very rarely if ever send cards to people.

Most of the people I know are either indifferent to birthdays or would rather not be reminded of them but do like to be contacted and remembered all year round.

Bingowings said:

I'm sure if you saw something your wife would really like and you could afford it you would buy it regardless of the day of the year.

Warbler said : not everyone can afford the buy gifts every single day of the year.   That is why we have special days of the year to buy them.    If you gave gifts every day,  they wouldn't be special anymore.

Naturally I wasn't suggesting buying expensive gifts every single day of the year that's silly but as and when something of genuine use or interest pops up and you can afford it. If you give something to someone because of the date how is that special? Leap years aside, every year has the same dates in it.

Akwat said:

Valentine's Day is as meaningful as you want to make it.

Yep. I paid a massive utility bill this Valentine's Day, it kept my significant other and myself warm and able to cook for months. I also cooked dinner, I cooked dinner today too, did the laundry and got food from the grocery shop.

Bingowings said:

Christmas was originally a series of pagan festivals like Yule to see people through the middle and hardest days of the winter and it still has aspects of that even if it has been overly commercialised.

Warbler said :

funny I always thought it had something to do with a certain being's birth.

Nope the Christians pinched the date, some of the customs and practices straight out of a hodgepodge of Pagan festivals Yule, Saturnalia etc.

People have been leaving cakes out for Odin's horse in their shoe, decorating trees, exchanging gifts, having the boss serve them, eating and drinking too much etc around the winter solstice long before Christianity.

It's not Jesus' birthday, the Christ Mass is a Mass said for Christ in a church, everything else is about getting through the worst of the winter.

 

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Bingowings said:  If you give something to someone because of the date how is that special? Leap years aside, every year has the same dates in it.

are you joking? 

Bingowings said:

It's not Jesus' birthday, the Christ Mass is a Mass said for Christ in a church, everything else is about getting through the worst of the winter.

 

I'll hold my own beliefs on that thankyou very much.

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Warbler said:

Bingowings said:  If you give something to someone because of the date how is that special? Leap years aside, every year has the same dates in it.

are you joking?

While I'm not necessarily demeaning all pre-conceived dates, what is it you think he's joking about?  He's simply saying that a spontaneous act of affection is what makes a date special and arguing that a forced act of affection committed simply because of a date is not.

And, yeah... Jesus's birthday is (most likely) not December 25th.  Existing pagan festivals were adapted to become the majority of what we know as modern Christmas.  I was under the impression everyone knew that.  So, again, what's the problem?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Gaffer Tape said: 

Existing pagan festivals were adapted to become the majority of what we know as modern Christmas.  I was under the impression everyone knew that.  So, again, what's the problem?

No problem here.  I like what it has become.

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Outside the overt commercial element me too.

In the middle of the winter it's nice to have a knees up and a bit of scran with your friends and family and I would probably give them stuff anyway because I don't get to see them that often.

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bkev said:

Warbler said:
Valentine's Day is not about buying love, its about show love.   One way you show love is buying gifts.    Just about every holiday is commercialized, especially Christmas.    Should we hate every holiday?


I smell a red herring*... while Bingo's sense of humor doesn't usually agree with (I can't really speak for his opinions), jumping to a large claim such as that is never a strong argumentative technique.

*I may be misusing the term "red herring", but it's the closest I can remember to a technical term for using extremities

 bkev,

I was really confused by your post and the usage of the term 'red herring'.  Until I dismissed the term and read the rest of your post and understood it completely.

It would seem that your usage of the term 'red herring' was merely a... erm...  a, uh... forgive me- red herring.

If this was your intention, may I be the first to commend you on a term well exemplified.

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"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

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Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Unfortunately no, it was a genuine mistake Xhonzi. :(

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Gaffer Tape said:

And, yeah... Jesus's birthday is (most likely) not December 25th.  Existing pagan festivals were adapted to become the majority of what we know as modern Christmas.  I was under the impression everyone knew that.  So, again, what's the problem?

I recenetly read how one of Dicken's purposes in writing A Christmas Carol was to de-religiousize Christmas and make it more of a secular holiday where people just spend time together as family and celebrate traditions.

Apparently he was quite successful.

And as a seriously Christian, I am well aware that Christ's birth was not in the Winter, let alone on 25 Dec (since there wasn't such a thing at the time anyhow).  However, it doesn't bother me to celebrate Christ's birth that day or to use symbols lifted from the pagans to do it.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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bkev said:

Unfortunately no, it was a genuine mistake Xhonzi. :(

Hmm... I've got my eye on you, lad.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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 (Edited)

I mentioned the pagan roots of Christmas in relation to the traditions still serving their original purpose despite the over commercialisation of the period.

Valentine's Day has lost all resemblance to it's initial purpose on top of the over commercialisation.

If people want to celebrate the birth of Christ around the winter solstice, why not?

Nobody knows when he was born and if you are Christian picking a time when everyone else is celebrating makes a lot of sense and the festivities still serve the same function if you are a pagan or a Christian.

Easter has points of similarity with some Pagan festivals too but it's also around the time of Passover and so fits in with the gospel narrative.

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 (Edited)

Gaffer Tape said:

While I'm not necessarily demeaning all pre-conceived dates, what is it you think he's joking about?  He's simply saying that a spontaneous act of affection is what makes a date special and arguing that a forced act of affection committed simply because of a date is not.

not sure what to say to that.  

Christmas, Easter, Valentines Day,  etc . . .    They are all special to me.    Should we all just stop celebrating holidays?  I don't know what else to say.

edit:  I did think of a few things to say.  I and others choose to celebrate holidays.   No one forces us, therefore it is not a forced act of affection. 

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Warbler said:

Gaffer Tape said:

While I'm not necessarily demeaning all pre-conceived dates, what is it you think he's joking about?  He's simply saying that a spontaneous act of affection is what makes a date special and arguing that a forced act of affection committed simply because of a date is not.

not sure what to say to that.

Christmas, Easter, Valentines Day,  etc . . .    They are all special to me.    Should we all just stop celebrating holidays?  I don't know what else to say.

If people want to celebrate them than they should (if they can afford to).

There are a lot of people who do so because of pressure more than pleasure and I think that's wrong.

There are a lot of people who get into serious debt because of them and that's wrong too.

Giving is not necessarily buying and doesn't necessarily have to follow a calendar marking.

BTW I think Gaffer Tape meant prescribed more than forced, following a set regime of doing or giving things on specific days rather than spontaneously and when the opportunity arises ( please correct me if I'm in error there).

I don't think he meant the feeling behind the giving was necessarily insincere.