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STAR WARS: EP V "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - 12GB 1080p MP4 VERSION AVAILABLE NOW — Page 883

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 (Edited)

Not sure why we're still seeing posts like this:

Ady, I think some kind of movement has got to happen in his forehead or his eyes.

The only thing that I would personally change if I was working on this is having a slight movement to his eyes. 

The blinks I would like to see, as it would be a nice nod to the original scene, much less take care of the "lifeless" upper part of the face that others have an issue with.

You know what I would add to the emperor that I think would distract from the lack of facial movement?  A quick eye blink, a la the amazing eye work you already did on Yoda.

 

After Adywan said this:

And adding movement to the face was tried but it looked fake. It may work on an alien but on a human face it becomes noticeable due to the way we recognise real life objects. Besides, there is zero facial or eye movement in the 2004 version so i really don't see what the problem is here.

 

I wonder if suggestions for blinking eyes would still be made if we didn't know that Ady had used a static image for the upper portion of the Emperor's face.  Sometimes ignorance really is bliss...

“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers

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corellian77 said:

I wonder if suggestions for blinking eyes would still be made if we didn't know that Ady had used a static image for the upper portion of the Emperor's face.  Sometimes ignorance really is bliss...

 

Actually I forgot about how the effect was constructed when I first saw the video on Facebook, so I can't agree that THAT was the reason why I had the reaction that I did.  Of course, knowing the limitations of the source material and then comparing it to the crappy 2004 DVD do make Ady's clip a lot better.

However,  Ady DID construct a smile "by hand" as he just recently stated.  While perhaps cheek movement is difficult to accomplish on humans, clearly some lip movement can be achieved.

I'm still very curious as to Ady's thoughts on the addition of a blink. 

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Brimley said:

I'm still very curious as to Ady's thoughts on the addition of a blink. 

Adywan said:

..there is zero facial or eye movement in the 2004 version so i really don't see what the problem is here.

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Looks amazing!  The audio is a temp track, right?  Often the end of some of the Emperor's lines end slightly after the mouth stops moving.

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I kinda like the "still" Emperor. It's almost surreal how he can be so calm and lifeless. And no, I'm not trying to mock Ady's work, I think it's leaps beyond the 2004 DVD, and I think it's fine as it is.

Ady, did you do some work on the star destroyer that gets hit by an asteroid? Maybe it's placebo, but the scene looks far more detailed than the DVDs. Or did the higher resolution/colour correction pick up more details?

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Burdokva said:


I kinda like the "still" Emperor. It's almost surreal how he can be so calm and lifeless. And no, I'm not trying to mock Ady's work, I think it's leaps beyond the 2004 DVD, and I think it's fine as it is.

Ady, did you do some work on the star destroyer that gets hit by an asteroid? Maybe it's placebo, but the scene looks far more detailed than the DVDs. Or did the higher resolution/colour correction pick up more details?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_1WBvrwBY-EI/TT9Lp1E56QI/AAAAAAAAHp0/dDy68_tPpJY/s640/0111Emp-001.jpg
Bridge section no longer disappears.

More:
http://picasaweb.google.com/doubleofive/ESBREmperorClip

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Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress

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Adywan said:

Besides, there is zero facial or eye movement in the 2004 version so i really don't see what the problem is here.

Other than a fine actor hindered by awful makeup? :)

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The 720P MKV version is much clearer, you can see more detail on the Emperor (including the eyes)

Damn you youtube and your terrible MP4/fla compression.

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rpvee said:

The audio is a temp track, right?  Often the end of some of the Emperor's lines end slightly after the mouth stops moving.

As has been repeated ad infinitum recently...yes it is.

But even if it stays this way in the final edit, just think of it as being a slight delay in the 'hologram's audio signal...

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Oh yeah, that 720p version looks absolutely fantastic.  So much better than the YouTube one.

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ImperialFighter said:

rpvee said:

The audio is a temp track, right?  Often the end of some of the Emperor's lines end slightly after the mouth stops moving.

As has been repeated ad infinitum recently...yes it is.

But even if it stays this way in the final edit, just think of it as being a slight delay in the 'hologram's audio signal...

That's actually a pretty brilliant way to think of it, ImperialFighter! Nice!

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Absolutely! In the mkv you can actually see the grain. ESB:R is gonna look so awesome :-)

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Just watched the new clip Ady, awesome work as usual. Looks alot more like the ROTJ emperor; however, there are 2 small details I thought I might point out that could be tweaked just a little bit. The detail on the forehead seems to be a tad bit strong when compared the the rest of the face. My attention keeps getting drawn to it. Is there any way you could soften/lighten the detail in that area just a little bit. The second thing is that I'm noticing a weird movement with top have of the face ( from the bridge of the nose on up ). It seems to have it's own movement apart from when the hologram shifts during the conversation. Could it be the shadows creating an illusion or is it just my imagination?

Did you blend parts of the 2004 emperor, and the ROTJ emperor together to make the shot?

Venerable member of the “Red Eye” Knights

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TheBoost said:

Adywan said:

Besides, there is zero facial or eye movement in the 2004 version so i really don't see what the problem is here.

Other than a fine actor hindered by awful makeup? :)

 Exactly! I cant believe how much they fucked up the makeup for this scene(and for ROTS also), I mean did they even study the rotj emperor as reference, it sure dont seem like it! 

 I agree with some posters here that the upper part of his face would need some more tweaking he's eyes seem lifeless. Perhaps some slight head movement would work. It may have worked to have a completly static upper face on the 2004 version due to the thick horrible fat makeup  but I'm not sure it works on the "skinny" one.

But it sure is a hell of an improvement over the 2004 version nevertheless  :)

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 (Edited)

Now i did a little experiment on the videos with the added smile which has now proved something to me. It really doe seem to me that knowing that i used a static image is causing people to see just that: something static. Because it isn't. It has been mentioned that i need to add movement to the cheeks, well the cheeks, right up to a small section of the lower eyelids, are actually the 2004 version and is not part of the mask and they can clearly be seen to move when he speaks. Also the eyes have had movement added and the forehead is also animated. He now makes a scowl when he says "the son of skywalker must not become a jedi", his brow raises after the smile and it also has movement during the first shot . Also it has been said that the upper part of the head has a separate movement to the lower from the bridge of the nose. Well the static image used actually covers the nose and ends at the tip of the nose so the movement in the whole nose would be the same. Youtube and facebook's horrible recompression destroys a lot of the detail, as has been mentioned by people who have downloaded the high bitrate version and is the reason i really hate uploading video to these sites.

Even the 1980 emperor was very static during the front view shots. the upper part of his head has no movement at all, only up to the lower eyelids. It had to remain as static as possible so they could add the monkey eyes later, but the upper part of the mask does not move at all, even when talking. The blinks are slow because they slowed down the footage of the monkey to give it a strange look about it. But this would not work with Ian's Emperor because he is more human looking. But, as i have said before, adding blinks to creatures is one thing but adding them to a human will make it look fake because of the way our eye perceive real world objects. It's to do with recognition and its one of the main reasons why CG faces will never look real, because we will always be able to see that something isn't quite right.

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It's a trick of the mind indeed, Ady.  And synchronization aside, when he says "He could destroy us", the lips don't close to make an "s" sound.  That's really my only nitpick, personally.

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A bit like the Uncanny Valley effect but it doesn't worry me as the Emperor is meant to be a bit off putting and strange.

You have managed to make the image look more like the Emperor in ROTJ and more subtly bizarre than his ROTS look (which just looks and sounds like someone doing a comedy pastiche of the Emperor) and that's as much if not more than anyone can ask.

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 (Edited)

The 'S' sound is mostly made by the passing breath over connecting teeth (that's why people with dental eccentricities whistle or lisp on their 's's).

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 (Edited)

Is this a real discussion or did I suddenly go into some strange bizzaro world for this edit where folks are talking about teeth? :p

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I noticed in one of the clips where vader is talking to the star destroyer captains via hologram, that one of the holograms (who are in the background) cover vaders shoulder (which is in the foreground) clearly it's just a compositing mishap.

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I totally recognized the new movements to his face and think it looks perfect now.  I think that having him blink is unnecessary and would make it look worse.  Before, his eyes looked like they were looking off to the left and were never moving and it just seemed strange.  Now his eyes are focused correctly and his face moves around his eyes and he seems real.  I also saw the movements of the hologram, but I attribute that to it being a hologram and perfectly natural.  Please change nothing more! :)

 

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 (Edited)

adywan, I'm actually speechless after watching the high bitrate clip (the only way to watch your previews, as far as I'm concerned, so I wait for them rather than let facebook or youtube mitigate my first impression). I did watch the comparison, and more than any other video it shows just how much thinking, planning, and effort you've put into this project. It's apparent just how many hundreds (thousands?) of individual tricks and tweaks we're seeing flit by in the space of a couple minutes.

I immediately noticed the facial movements, and I think they are chillingly effective because they are restrained.  Anything more obvious would get in the way. I think some of the reactions are proof of just how much expectation plays into perception. It's like it's hard to see the wizard the same way after peeking behind the curtain. I think constructive criticism is good and I like to see people push you toward besting yourself, but I think this is a case where the criticism is a result of knowing how it was done, making the eye hyper-sensitive as compared to a new viewer who was none the wiser. It's not really that there is anything to fix.

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ChainsawAsh said:

It seems like every time you post a new clip, someone has an issue with the audio, and you have to remind them that you won't work on audio until the video is completely done.  People have such short attention spans! ;-)

Doesn't matter how much or how clearly he says it - people will always complain because they're too lazy to read.  I've been in sales for most of my working life - people shop by pictures and prices, they don't read words.  When you show them that the ad has text that explains everything they're asking you, they think you're trying to trick them.

The problem with the quest to make the world idiot-proof is that it challenges the universe to create better idiots.

My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.

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Can anything be done about the transparency of the Emperor?

We went from:

Which seems to echo the transparency of the GOUT.

To this:

Which looks more in line with the 2004 image.

I think something inbetween might work better.