The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 202

RoccondilRinon said:

"couldn't care less", Frink.

Actually, I could care less.  I do care a little, just not as much as you might think.

;-)

I'm not going to lie and said that I've meticulously analyzed this gargantuan thread, but I have read quite a bit of the most popular suggestions, and I have one great concern:

Adywan has openly voiced his desire to keep the reveal of Vader as a surprise. This is logical, as the twist in ESB is essentially negated by the prequel trilogy, and would be much more enjoyable if it was kept as the amazing twist it was intended to be.

This preservation however, raises some problems that no one has proposed viable solutions to. How do you have the prequel trilogy, in which the ENTIRE PLOT centers around Anakin's inevitable downfall, stand without it's core motivation? And how would you even make it even slightly ambiguous without butchering the ending?

To keep Anakin's transformation secret, you must:

A.) Make the audience believe that this Vader is a new character without seeming out of place

B.) Explain how Anakin becomes Vader without it being blatant, but also holding up to logic

C.) Make it seem like these two are not one and the same, and

D.) Make it appear as though Vader has killed Anakin.

I have yet to read a single viable way of making any of those elements work. This is a major flaw, several major flaws actually. Enough flaws to make me question as to whether keeping the secret would be worth it or not.

Not that there isn't a possibler solution out there...

G*dd*mn, if bob can do that maybe he can really have the suited Vader march on the Jedi temple as in the mock-up in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/davnes007#p/u/17/2NVNWssUn68

(skip to 3:48)

What about merging Utapau with Mustafar?

Obi-Wan is officially there to bring down Grievous who falls to an uncertain end in a lava pit, Anakin is unofficially there to kill the Separatist leaders (thinking Obi-Wan) already dead.

That way you could blur the identity of Vader by insinuating it might be Grievous reborn and still have Anakin (not yet Vader ) fight Obi-Wan because he is a threat to the Chancellor and have a suited Vader enter the Temple and dubbed Lord Vader.

Bingowings said:

What about merging Utapau with Mustafar?

Obi-Wan is officially there to bring down Grievous who falls to an uncertain end in a lava pit, Anakin is unofficially there to kill the Separatist leaders (thinking Obi-Wan) already dead.

That way you could blur the identity of Vader by insinuating it might be Grievous reborn and still have Anakin (not yet Vader ) fight Obi-Wan because he is a threat to the Chancellor and have a suited Vader enter the Temple and dubbed Lord Vader.

That's not a bad idea but how could that possibly be done? All introduction shots of Utapau would have to be replaced with entering Mustafar (inserting Obi-Wan's fighter, I suppose). All of the scenes of Obi-Wan on Utapau would have to either be heavily edited (and would be a very obvious edit) or, more likely, be completely unusable.

Also, how do you make it seem that Grevious meant anything to Palpatine, or at least enough to bring him back to life (apparently for a second time)?

Great idea, though too hard to do.

JimmySilverrims said:

 

Also, how do you make it seem that Grevious meant anything to Palpatine, or at least enough to bring him back to life (apparently for a second time)?

Hm... how about replacing Grievous' eyes (not a hard thing to do) to make it look like it's Darth Maul ressurected? (Maul is after all, a very skilled warrior, it would be shame to lose him totally, and Palpatine visited Naboo just after he became Chancellor - a certainly good moment to retrieve the body). If we go the 'Dooku is Sith' route (it won't make sense in 'Dooku is a real rogue' route), it could be possilbe to insert some kind of a cameo in AotC of Grievous, of him being rebuilt and stuff (think Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest, when we saw clues regarding Barbossa's reappearance before we knew he would actually reappear).

So interesting!

I had heard the Maul/Grevious ideas before, but this actually isn't very bad. It adds depth, keeps a great character, and on paper, it's very cool, but it does raise some problems:

Why would Maul be a general if he was the bad-ass secret sith assassin from TPM? He was more of the quiet follower rather than a military commander.

Why would Palpatine spend so much time with Anakin? Why would he get Anakin to kill Dooku? 

How do you make a reveal of Maul's resurrection? How do you hint to it throughout the film? How do you depict his second resurrection?

How do you convey that Vader and Grevious are one and the same when Grevious is spindly with no organs and much machinery, while Vader is clearly humanoid?

How do you include Anakin's "death" or fight with Obi-Wan without making it obvious that he's Vader?

Should you have Obi-Wan recognize Maul? If not, how to you interestingly convey who he is?

Why would Palpatine sink so much effort into keeping Maul if he has already replaced him with Dooku?

What do you do with Obi-Wan's fight with Anakin? What causes Padme's death? Does Anakin still cut the hands off of Windu? Does Windu confront Palpatine at all? If not, how does Palpatine become disfigured?

How much new footage will it take to add the Maul Resurrections story arc? how do you make it seem like "Maul"'s body was recovered from Utapau without actually showing it happen (as it actually didn't).

Now I know that sound like a barrage of negativity, but really I'm just wondering how on earth anyone could pull of such a massive change without anything short of inserting entire new sequences into the film (a feat that even funded professionals would have time with) and add in lines (making the whole attempt damn near impossible).

I say near impossible. If you made Maul speak a subtitled alien language in TPM and if you had Grevious speak the same language the same way and if you managed to film new sequences of Grevious's reveal in AoTC and his resurrection in TPM you could (with difficulty) make me believe that Maul = Grevious.

But Grevious = Vader?

Vader: "So, you have accepted the truth."

Luke: "I have accepted that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father."

I'm all for big ideas, but the notion of removing the whole Anakin-becomes-Vader story is pretty stupid. As deeply flawed as the prequels are, Anakin becoming Vader isn't it.

Say you manage to remove that story arc... then what the hell is the trilogy about? Why so much focus on Anakin Skywalker. And considering the prequels alone aren't the problem here, as Jedi clearly confirms it and also plays on the conflict between father and son.

Now I know that sound like a barrage of negativity, but really I'm just wondering how on earth anyone could pull of such a massive change without anything short of inserting entire new sequences into the film (a feat that even funded professionals would have time with) and add in lines (making the whole attempt damn near impossible).

Don't ask me :p If I ever get to doing my SW edits (probably after the Blu-ray sets are released, dunno... and when I will have LOTS of time), I, personally, am not going to hide the fact that Anakin's Darth Vader (I actually want to give the Saga a unity by making it look actually MORE like the 'Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker', instead of this tragedy being thought of in the last moment). But, anyway, regarding your questions.

Why would Maul be a general if he was the bad-ass secret sith assassin from TPM? He was more of the quiet follower rather than a military commander.

 

Because there were no Separatists that Palpy had to lead? Anyway, regarding Grievous character - we have the advantage of him having NO FREAKING mouth, meaning he can say WHATEVER we want... OR he can be silent most of the time, like Darth Maul, speaking only on business and when effecting certain orders.

Why would Palpatine spend so much time with Anakin? Why would he get Anakin to kill Dooku? 

Because, regardless if we cut the 'Chosen One' crap or not (I'm not a PT-hater, but I don't like the Chosen One concept since it feels forced... mostly because it wasn't really thought of from the beginning, like 95% of Star Wars Saga :p Heck, even Vader wasn't Luke's father when the first SW was filmed... anyway, where was I... oh, yeah, regardless if he was the Chosen One or not, Anakin still is a Jedi of remarkable capabilities, more remarkable than in anyone else Sid could think of.

Now, come to think of it, I really don't have that much clear answers. Anyway, I think that not only it's impossible to make Grievous and Vader one character, but also implausible. However, we could ease the Maul = Grievous stuff by taking Sid's lines from RotS, pasting them into TPM and naming Darth Maul Darth Grievous (there's only one or two places in the whole movie where the name 'Maul' is uttered).

Regarding Anakin's Dark Side. If Anakin's a loose cannon, we could make it seem like Palps didn't want to make him an apprentice, but to go berserk on the Jedi, I don't know.

----------------------------------------------------

EDIT:

What I'm more interested in, is it possible to make so that the whole Saga would NEVER show the same planet in two movies? (aside, MAY BE, from Tatooine).

See here:

EpI: Naboo, Tatooine, Coruscant

EpII: Coruscant, Tatooine, Kamino, Geonosis

EpIII: Coruscant, Utapau, Kashyyyk, Mustafar, Polis Massa (plus Alderaan, Tatooine, Cato Neimodia, Naboo, Felucia, Mygeeto, Saleucami make short appearances)

EpIV: Tatooine, Death Star (let's count it as a planet :p ), Yavin (Alderaan makes an appearance)

EpV: Hoth, Dagobah, Bespin

EpVI: Tatooine (AGAIN THE BLASTED! :) ), Endor, Death Star II (Coruscant, Tatooine, Bespin, Naboo in 2004 make short appearances, but I guess that's acceptable)

Do you think it's possible to make, let's say, Coruscant being only MENTIONED in EpI and putting the Council on Dantooine, for example? Or stuff like that? Make solo be held captive not on Tatooine, but on Nal Hutta (really, there's no reason why Jabba the Hutt HAS to be on Tatooine. It would make him a much more fearsome Crime Lord if everyone around the galaxy knew him :p ). You know, to make the universe seem VASTLY bigger.

But, most importantly... I really don't like the concept of the second Death Star (yeah, I know it's RotJ territory, but the PT has the biggest number of the same planets used in several films in a row, so I'll justask it here), I think one Death Star is enough. Do you think it's possible to change the DSII to a giant Imperial fleet? (or, I don't know... something).

I'VE GOT IT!

There is one other option.

A simple, elegant solution that keeps the twist in ESB a surprise, but also keeps Anakin's slip to the dark side. It would be easy to do and be non-intrusive to the story. But it isn't perfect (as virtually any change this large would be.)

Make it appear Anakin dies at Mustafar. The original scripted line in ESB was not "I am your father" but rather "Obi-Wan killed your father". If you make it appear that Vader is about to tell Luke this instead the surprise is in tact.

Add more flames to Anakin's burning, and remove all shots of him moving (the scene in which the Emperor reaches down to touch him is excellent for this purpose as he does not move at all, save for his head turns slightly.) Remove breathing and Palpatine's line "He's still alive".

Instead, have Palpatine say "I must make a new apprentice" (Likely using a voice actor, as any line in which he says the phrase "new apprentice" is over hologram. Every. Last. One.)

Likely, (and most regretfully,) you must cut most if not all of Vader's birth. (Which blows, because that was one of the most redeemable scenes in the film. [Except for that last bit "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"]) Perhaps you can make it appear as though Vader's a droid or something, but most likely just have him appear at the scene with the Emperor.

And I know that it might seem out of place for a Star Wars film, but preface the Executor scene with text saying "Ten Years Later". The idea of the Emperor building a new ship and handing out new uniforms so quickly seems ridiculous, plus it makes it look like it takes less time for the Death Star to be built (which was another major complaint I've heard.)

It appears that Anakin is dead, Palpatine has a new apprentice, and an explanation as to why Obi-Wan would say Vader killed Anakin.

The only issue? The excellent lines "he was a pupil of mine, until he turned to evil" and "when I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master" must be sadly cut from ANH.

Otherwise, this seems to be the most simple, logical, and viable solution to keeping Vader's true identity a secret.

RE: Palpatine dialogue - a new voice actor might not be necessary. In the last few cutscenes for the first Force Unleashed video game, Palpatine has some dialogue that could work, plus it's delivered by a pretty darn close voice actor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRK6U9tZxyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNIU-9X5Eso&feature=related

Doesn't McDiarmid himself talk a hell lot in RotJ about Luke becoming his new next apprentice? To the point that he should've kept his mouth shut if he wanted Luke to embrace the Dark Side? :)

Does anyone seriously think this will work? You're wasting your time trying to change the story arc of the entire saga, because everything else you have will fall to pieces.

Save your time and try something that is A) a good idea and B) possible.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Anakin not be Vader but rather to blur the lines for the first time viewer so you only know for sure he is when Yoda confirms it in ROTJ.

The name of the thread promotes radical thinking. The idea comes first and how it may be done and the actually doing branches from those ideas.

The saga doesn't fall to pieces because someone comes up with an idea for a potential edit, it doesn't even fall down if someone makes the edit.

It only falls down if someone poopsplodes the story in an edit and destroys all other versions (and even then it could get back up again if someone does another version restoring it back to health.

So feel free to explore the possibilities but solutions to how these ideas could be implicated are just as welcome as the ideas themselves (if not more so).

I appreciate that, but I don't think this idea is worth exploring because all it will do is further soften an already weak story in the prequels. The prequels have two story arcs, Anakin's fall and Palpatine's rise. To remove one leaves very little, and let's face it, they weren't good enough in the first place. But I think attempting this change is actually going to make them even weaker.

Besides, I still don't get why people have to watch them in Episode order. The assumption that they are supposed to be seen that way isn't well-founded as they weren't written that way. The prequels were written in the knowledge that virtually everyone knew Vader was Luke's father. Any attempt to rewrite them after the fact is just going to fall to pieces. It won't work.

Don't get me wrong, I totally applaud radical revisions if it is going to improve something; I just think this idea will achieve the opposite.

In terms of running order part of the problem is Lucas' own invention, by putting the chapter numbers into the crawl the PT are by definition not true prequels but instead earlier episodes.

If you watch episode of a mini-series or read chapters of a book you are expected to watch or read them in the numbered order and the audience has every right to expect the story to progress in a reasonably linear fashion.

Lucas should have been aware of this when he decided to make Episodes 1 to 3.

I'm all for ideas for addressing this.

Anakin still falls/ Palpatine still rises but if the history of Vader, Leia (and the Emperor in the earlier chapters) could be obscured it would make the PT truly the earlier episodes of the saga instead of bolted on appendices.

It's a radical approach to adjusting or using footage from the PT, others (like the Reborn idea) also exist.

I think both of you are right.

Lemonstein, It's quite obvious that the Prequel Trilogy is unique and different from the Original Trilogy, with new characters, locations, and plot that tells of a story that is very different than the original trilogy.

However, as Bingowings points out, this is not two trilogies, but a saga. Taking place in the same universe, with one story pulling it towards aa conclusion.

So by making the identity of Vader intentionally vague (without eliminating the fall of Anakin [He still turns to the Dark Side, just {seemingly} briefly]) we keep the Prequel trilogy valid while still preserving the ESB twist.

Anakin's fall is intact, the rise of Palpatine is intact, and the saga (as many of us so desire) becomes more streamlined, feeling less like an original and a prequel and more like one long story.

Also, the Emperor in TFU is Sam Witwer, the actor for Starkiller. I was surprised at how good his impersonation was.

Also additionally, the Executor scene would have to be the last scene of Episode three, making it appear as though this takes place sometime in the future and this is the reveal of Vader.

I don't agree at all. We all know Episode IV only became such after the massive success of Star Wars, and there was never such foreplanning on Lucas' part.

As for "true" prequels, that's nonsense. They were earlier installments which followed an already-revealed later story. They are prequels. You either watch them in order and accept that Vader's reveal at the end of Empire is not going to surprise the audience (it still works but in a different way) or you watch them in production order.

Anyway, we're clearly not going to agree on this, so good luck with that idea, but I think you're totally wasting your time.

Personally, I feel that the prequel trilogy should have been designed in such a way that one could watch in "story" order (I-VI), and all OT surprises would be preserved.

Obviously, that's not how it worked out, and I don't think it's possible to make it so by editing the prequels.  They'd need to be re-done from scratch.

I agree. But given that Vader's reveal at the end of Empire, and the conversation that he and Luke have in Jedi, it would be rather difficult to write the prequels without it spoiling the reveal. You would still have to establish Anakin as a character, in order for the reveal to mean anything. It might have worked had it been written that way, but personally I agree with what Lucas did, which was write it for an audience that already knew what happens later. It wouldn't have made sense to do it any other way.

A few decades down the line if people come to them totally new, it might have worked better had they been written how you suggest, but you can't write things in that way. You have to write for the people who are going to see it on release. And we all knew who Anakin Skywalker was.

I disagree.  It would have made sense, and it could have been done.

The #1 problem with the PT was the decision to focus so heavily on Anakin.  It should have focused on Obi-Wan as the primary protagonist.  And I think, had this been done, it could have worked while still keeping the surprises of the OT.

But that doesn't matter for this topic - this is about working with what we have, not creating something that was never there.