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THX 1138 "preservations" + the 'THX 1138 Italian Cut' project (Released) — Page 10

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 (Edited)

I had replied to Msycamore's PM with this, but the more I think about it, the more I think I am right. There was talk about whether this was actually the 1971 theatrical cut; I had initially thought perhaps this was a preview cut or workprint, with Warner's "freaks up front" (as they say in the DVD doc), that somehow was shipped to Italy. But, in the end, I am just going to say that this is just a foreign cut of the film. It's impossible to say if this version was specific to Italy or if it represents a more general "International Cut".

This was what I wrote:

"Well, after re-watching the clip again for a re-fresher (I had seen it long ago) here are my thoughts:

-Robert Duvall narration"--this is misleading. I hadn't realized it was all dubbed. So, Duvall never was in the studio to record voice-over: only his Italian doppleganger for the dub.

-This brings us to why they would add their own voice-over for the Italian version. Well, this is related to the whole re-editing in the first place. Sometimes, foreign versions are simply edited differently. They have to add voice-over, make the plot clearer, or just have the option to make things stylistically different. Sometimes its because it is felt that certain cultures require different emphases for the film to make sense or be effective. Sometimes it purely due to contractual traditions that allows producers, execs and foreign distributors the right to make their own stylistic changes. A good example is 1978's Dawn of the Dead; George Romero edited the American version himself, but producer Dario Argento reserved the right to re-edit the film for the Italian and international version, making it faster paced and less humorous, because 1) he preferred this method of storytelling, and 2) he thought this would be more appealing to an international audience. There are other examples I can give, perhaps more contemporary being Miramax who often buy up foreign films and re-edit them to play to domestic tastes. Anyway, it's not so unusual for foreign versions to get some tweaking, it doesn't happen all the time but it's not unheard of. [This is prevalent in low-budget and obscure cult films too, where the cost and distribution (even with Warners at the helm) is dispersed across multiple companies and partners for different world regions because the films are not very commercial, but as part of that deal said partners reserve the right to modify the film for specific regions]

So, perhaps in the case of THX, there was an issue with the right to tweak the film for foreign versions. So, Warners, who was keen to have "the freaks up front" thought they could use this as a good opportunity to do so, with additional dubbing for narration from the Robert Duval-equivalent to make this introduction more sensical. Maybe this was part of Lucasfilm's negotiation: they got to keep the original structure for the domestic version, but in the foreign prints Warner could put their "freaks up front" structure into place.

Also, as it relates to the rough splicing, foreign prints are often made from dupe material and look rough, and if they are edited its not from the original negative, which is why there is crude splicing in the newly-cut scenes.

Just a thought. So, right now I am going to say this is a rare and previously-unseen foreign cut of the film."

"However, as a follow-up, since I am suggesting this is a 1971 foreign print, probably many of the differences compared to the 1978 cut are a reflection of the 1971 American theatrical version. If I am right, it would still be a bit difficult to know which was ported from the 1971 American and which was an original foreign change, but the Skywalking blurb may help guide in distinguishing this."

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I appreciate you shared your thought with the rest of us and not left it to a private message. We need as many thoughts as possible here!

I can agree with your line of thought.

To be sure if this is a cut specifically designed for Italy or it has been distribuited like this also in other European countries we should check the old French version of the movie, they also dub foreign films and first released this in 1971 (on the contrary of Germany where it was only released on 1978, according to IMDb).

What's the Skywalking blurb?

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On p.97 of the book Skywalking (first printing), it is stated that 4 minutes of material were cut out of Lucas' version for the 1971 theatrical cut (but later restored), which were mainly to do with the White Limbo sequence and George's bizarre attempts at humour. So, this gives us some clue as to what was added for the re-release in the late 70s that subsequently became the standard pre-SE home video version. However, it also says "mainly", not exclusively, so there might have been other bits taken out. But at least if this Italian version is missing some parts from the limbo and some of the weird "humour", we can at least say that this probably reflects the original American editing.

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My German is not amazing, but it looks like that was just a German TV version that, for their own reasons probably, trimmed off a scant 45 seconds. They also re-ordered THX's arrest scene so that it makes no sense, for some reason. The site owner attributes it to an error in the master which ommitted a few seconds and mixed up the scene order for the arrest sequence, which may or may not be true--but either way, its less than a minute shorter overall. Another interesting variant, but not the droids we're looking for. Cool catch though!

EDIT

This does seem to lend further credence to my theory of regional variation. Because it seems totally re-editing the scene order of the arrest sequence is not just "an error" in the broadcast, but a deliberate manipulation.

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Thanks zombie for bringing your thoughts on this to the thread instead, as I had not gotten the time to respond to your message yet, my "Robert Duvall's character narration" in the PM was misleading indeed, I simply forgot to mention one of the most important issues, the dubbing. ;)

My german isn't that good either but that german tv-broadcast seems to match SilverWooks descriptions of reordering of scenes, and it also seems to have the same extended Donald Pleasence scene, hmm... could someone perhaps translate those descriptions, please.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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This is turning into quite a mystery!

I sent a message to the seller of that 16mm print I passed on back in October. It's full frame and had fading issues, but it's got the original logo. I'm even more curious as to what cut it is now.

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

I sent a message to the seller of that 16mm print I passed on back in October. It's full frame and had fading issues, but it's got the original logo. I'm even more curious as to what cut it is now.

Do you have the link to it? It would be interesting to know but if it has fading issues, is it really worth it? It could also end up being very expensive... buy, buy more now and be happy ;) do we have someone able and willing to help transfer a 16mm print? Puggo, perhaps... someone with more knowledge of 16mm film than me could maybe give some thoughts on this.

Also, thanks djsmokingjam for those links, for those who are curious, I posted the English equivalent to that side-by-side comparison between the original cut and "Director's cut" some time ago on page 3 of this thread.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Msycamore: the only difference between the re-release and the German TV is basically the re-ordering of the arrest, which somehow loses a few seconds, and the extended Donald Pleasance scene. No deleted White Limbo stuff, no humour. Nothing close to 4 or 5 minutes, just 45 seconds or so of less footage. So it's not the 1971 American theatrical that is being sought. It is, however, another variant in itself. Which goes to show that between the three known transfers from Italy, Germany and English-speaking countries there were three different cuts of the film. I wonder how many more there are.

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Could have sworn I linked to it at the time...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=270647193771&si=x3ytb%252FEKHv4QDdctJOmbgmnM5AY%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AX%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1123

Puggo has a lot of work to do already. However, I might be able to borrow a 16mm projector from someone else that's been modified for telecine purposes, and do it the cheap nasty way. (Pointing a camcorder at the screen.) This ought to suffice for capturing the logo if nothing else.

Unless I hear back from the seller, it's all hypothetical anyway. I won't commit to anything until I see what's on the betamax tape.

And speaking of videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPTyNDqOzpM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXr1gB0KXnQ

Where were you in '77?

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zombie84 said:

Msycamore: the only difference between the re-release and the German TV is basically the re-ordering of the arrest, which somehow loses a few seconds, and the extended Donald Pleasance scene. No deleted White Limbo stuff, no humour. Nothing close to 4 or 5 minutes, just 45 seconds or so of less footage. So it's not the 1971 American theatrical that is being sought. It is, however, another variant in itself. Which goes to show that between the three known transfers from Italy, Germany and English-speaking countries there were three different cuts of the film. I wonder how many more there are.

Yes, I got that. It was just that I found it interesting that this TV-airing shared those two editing choices this Italian cut have, and due to my bad german I was interested if it shared more similarities as well. But those two was the only thing common?

But I must say that I agree with your thougts on this, zombie, especially after that helpful "Skywalking"- info. For a while there I thought this Italian cut could be the actual 1971 US Theatrical version, (maybe cause I really wanted it to be ;) and also because of the runtime of this cut that is supposed to match its US counterpart) only that it was dubbed and that the opening narration was just an Italian exclusive. Now the question is, is this the original Italian 1971 release? or is it the only Italian version pre-'04 CGI version? or maybe just an International-cut/TV-cut? It's very interesting anyway.

SilverWook said:

Could have sworn I linked to it at the time...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=270647193771&si=x3ytb%252FEKHv4QDdctJOmbgmnM5AY%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AX%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1123

I think you did, I just couldn't find it, thanks. ;)

SilverWook said:

Puggo has a lot of work to do already. However, I might be able to borrow a 16mm projector from someone else that's been modified for telecine purposes, and do it the cheap nasty way. (Pointing a camcorder at the screen.) This ought to suffice for capturing the logo if nothing else.

Unless I hear back from the seller, it's all hypothetical anyway. I won't commit to anything until I see what's on the betamax tape.

Yes, you're right.

Oh, that sounds great! keep us updated. :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Already done, erri_wan. ;)

Love this video, a lesson in the art and craft of great filmmaking

http://vimeo.com/5980198

 

EDIT: does this clip which is from a pre-'04 version have the same Italian dubbing as your TV-version, erri_wan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxq_lx1Fdwo

I'm going to check if I can find some torrent for L'uomo che fuggì dal futuro (THX 1138), probably just DVD-versions out there, but you never know.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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I'm beginning to believe that your version could be just the regular Italian version that was available on video until the cgi version came along, I found a Italian VHS on this site, according to that site the length is approx. 78 min http://www.vhs-store.it/vhs.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=9192&category_id=26 I've seen that runtime on other sites as well, maybe the restored original cut never was released on video in Italy.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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SilverWook, do you want me to upload the DC opening with the old Warner/Kinney logo for you, maybe degraded with applied grain etc. so that you could see for yourself if it will work out or not? Just let me know.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

msycamore said:

EDIT: does this clip which is from a pre-'04 version have the same Italian dubbing as your TV-version, erri_wan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxq_lx1Fdwo

I'm going to check if I can find some torrent for L'uomo che fuggì dal futuro (THX 1138), probably just DVD-versions out there, but you never know.

Dubbing is the same yes, it's the old version which I see it's in higher quality than mine and, if you notice, the count of officers (at 8'41") has not been re-edited for letterbox like in my version. I'll enquiry at once about the origin.

Unfortunately I cannot say if it's the same cut because it's just after SEN chatting with the kids. I'll ask the owner how's the beginning and if he could send a copy!

 

msycamore said:

I'm beginning to believe that your version could be just the regular Italian version that was available on video until the cgi version came along,

That's what I'm trying to verify but it has become darn hard to find VHS anymore. I'm not spending 15 euro for a tape! LOL!

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One thing that always cracked me up is how the scene from 6.21 where a robot is showing some citizens around has been changed to a darker tone with the italian dubbing.

In English the robot is just showing around and he seems even pleasant. The group of white-dressed citizens seem to be tourists (considering that one has a camera)

In Italian, the robot, with a much less gentle voice, is saying that this is their new working area they have been "programmed" for (so making it as if the "tourists" are new comers for the job) and that the current personnel will be destroyed because outdated (this said very matter-of-factly). The workers don't seem to take notice of such a grave announcement (and that's because in English they are not threatened with an incoming destruction for being "outdated").

Italian dubbers must have had a different and even more dark and depressing idea on how Lucas' dystopia should be like haha. Machines saying that people are outdated and to be replaced/destroyed.

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Interesting info about the free artistic choices they took in the dubbing stage, if that was the general way the Italian distributors approached this film I guess it also explaines the somewhat weird opening narration.

SilverWook, here's a first test clip of the two opening logos...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uchu46

...just downsized and resized back with some filmgrain applied, does it look bad enough? too much grain? too little? maybe hard to tell for you at this point but let me know what you think, I will upload the complete opening including the Buck Rogers segment and credits a little later, if you want, just need a starting opinion on this, maybe a little gateweave? must look into that if it's possible... another thing, the opening titles doesn't seem to be a new digital composite, just colored green and the Buck Rogers clip just have a cyan/blue tint where it was just black & white/sepia in the original film, if I just could fix those issues maybe using the whole opening from the DC wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.

Edit: I noticed it was maybe a little too sharp, I'll add some blur to it, more samples to come...

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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test-clip 2, with blur applied

http://www.sendspace.com/file/3cytyh

test-clip 3, with slightly increased blur

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uoidvv

any suggestions? it's difficult when you don't have the LD capture at hand to match against but I just thought I would demonstrate it so you have an general idea of how it could be made in avisynth. I don't know, maybe the betamax tape or 16mm will be a better alternative but I'll try to improve this tweaking a little. ;)

 

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

Ok, I had a look at it. The grain is bit too much. It's like the slightly snowy analog cable tv that I used to be plagued by! If the screencaps are still visible a few pages back, that will give you a better idea of the grain and video noise levels.

The WB/Kinney Logo is all we really need, as the AZ logo is intact on the original. Some of the computer text screens was redone for the DC, so even the opening credits are slightly suspect.

The 16mm print has been relisted. And I'm still waiting on that pesky beta tape to show up!

Edit: Going to look at the other clips now.

 

Where were you in '77?

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Clips 2 and 3 are much better than #1. I'll try to rewatch the credits tonight and see if there's any noticeable gateweave going on.

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

Msycamore: Now the question is, is this the original Italian 1971 release? or is it the only Italian version pre-'04 CGI version? or maybe just an International-cut/TV-cut? It's very interesting anyway.

Well, it would be hard to say if it is a TV cut without another source to compare it with, and impossible to say unless there is some sort of commercial tape to compare it with. It is certainly possible that it was edited for both time and content so that it could run on television. I was going to say its a bit unlikely they would have spent the time and money doing all the foreign dubs for the 1978 re-issue, especially since re-issues are mainly on a territory by territory basis. However, the German version that is analyzed on a link posted on this page says that its less than a minute shorter than the UK version. I must assume that the UK VHS compared is based on the 1978 cut, since this is (reportedly, anyway) the only version ever released on home video until the DC.

So, either both the UK VHS and German TV versions are both the 1971 theatrical cut, which is not very likely, or the German version had the extra scenes added sometime in or after 1978. This is complicated by dubbing versus subtitles. It's not said whether the German version was dubbed or subtitled; if it was subtitled, it's no wonder the 1978 cut was ported, since it required extremely little work, unlike dubbing. The Italian version in discussion here is dubbed, so it would require more work on the part of Warners to port over the 1978 cut and thus slightly less likely.