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WHY we like the things we like (and why we don't that which we don't) — Page 2

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Oh... my thread became the "impostor avatar caper of '010'.  At least I have an evil ewok professing love for me...

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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A lot of this what I like/ what I don't like discussion can be seen as about objective vs. subjective.

 

"I love Avatar because the Navi people's way of life is so wonderful I wish I could just go there and be a blue person!"

-Totally subjective. While a bit odd, there's not clear way to argue with this, nor does it need to be defended. It's an opinion.

"I didn't like Avatar because the action was just too over the top, and the pacing was slow."

-These are mostly subjective but perhaps debatable.

"I hated Avatar because the plot was so plainly deriviative"

-While one could counter with "Well, I didn't mind the deriviative plot" this is a fairly objective statement.

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On a related note, I miss VINH.  He really spiced this place up.

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TheBoost said:

"I hated Avatar because the plot was so plainly deriviative"

-While one could counter with "Well, I didn't mind the deriviative plot" this is a fairly objective statement.

Movies that still manage to be pretty good even though they're derivative don't really bother me anymore, considering how derivative we know Star Wars to be nowadays. :\

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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Nanner Split said:

TheBoost said:

"I hated Avatar because the plot was so plainly deriviative"

-While one could counter with "Well, I didn't mind the deriviative plot" this is a fairly objective statement.

Movies that still manage to be pretty good even though they're derivative don't really bother me anymore, considering how derivative we know Star Wars to be nowadays. :\

There are degrees of being derivitive.

"Star Wars" is plainly derives influence from various sources.

"Eragon" was painly derived from "Star Wars."

There is nothing that "Star Wars" derived it's plot point-by-point from the way "Eragon" robbed "Star Wars" or the way "Avatar" is "Ferngully: The Last Rainforest".

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xhonzi said:

  Then he turned the tables on me and asked what I liked about it.  I felt like a deer in headlights.  Actually, more like those kids on Apple Jacks commercials in the 90s that were just confronted with the fact that the cereal doesn't, in fact, taste like apples (or "jacks" presumably).  I, like the kids in the commerical, eventually setteled on "I just did, alright?!  ALRIGHT!?!?". 

 It's harder to justify why one likes a well put together piece of entertainment than it is to pick it apart, because enjoyment of something (especially movies) is meant to be seemless and invisible.

We're not supposed to say "A-HA, a moment of emotional catharsis!" when we hit that spot in the film (unless we're a pretencious film snob). The same way good special effects don't draw attention to themselves and a great score doesn't take you out of the movie.

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I like wine and classical music.

The wierd thing is, these are things that seem to have this kind of... for lack of a better word, positive-stigma attached to them that you're supposed to know all sorts of stuff about them.

Here's all I know about wine.

  • Different grapes make different wine.
  • White wine is supposed to go in the fridge.

 

The other day I'm drinking some white zinfandel with a chum, and I mention how much I've been into white zin lately, and she says (shocked, I might add) that her 'wine person' told her that you're supposed to start out with sweet white wines, but grow into more sophisiticated reds. I have no idea the truth of that statement or not. I don't know if she saw me as a buffoon or some kind of wine-rebel. I just dig on $3 bottles of zin.

A similiar incident was in my car my pal picked up my Gustav Mahler CD. (It's classical music of some types) He starts asking me about it, and I get this vibe of insecurity from him, that he doesn't know anything about classical music, and he assumes I do. Here's what I know.

  • It's like movie scores, only without movies.
  • If there are lyrics, they're usually foreign.

 

I'm to the point I'm not sure I want to let people know I'm into wine and classical music. Does it make me look like a sophisticate, and people will see through that, or does it perhaps make me look like a poseur if I don't know the right things. I feel too defensive just saying "I just like it, shut up!"

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I like what I like.

I feel like I am devolving, a bit though. I used to really be into wine and classical music, now I am more into beer and punk. I hate watching TV and love reading books, especially classics and philosophy, though lately I have been more into video games (though my interest in them is definitely fading).

I don't care if people know what I like and don't like, or if they think I am posing because I lack extensive knowledge in some of these subjects.

I spent much of my youth not fitting in because I was different, then different became popular and I was king, then it became unpopular again and I didn't fit in anymore. There is no way to win these games, fortunately I learned that at a young age. Can't imagine living my life always worrying about what other people think, though I see many people that do just that. All ready enough chains around us in society, such worries just add more.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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In the book "How We Decide" by Jonah Lehrer, he talks about an experiment involving Strawberry (or, perhaps, grape) jelly.

They asked one group of students to rate 5 or 6 brands of jelly based on how "good" they thought they were.  The results were very repeatable and the top brand was always top and the bottom jelly was always bottom.

THEN!  They asked people to rate the jellies based on certain criteria.  i.e.: Texture, flavour, Seeds/Seedless, Spreadability, etc...  NOW the worst jellies were winning the votes! 

It seems that when rationale is demanded to explain our emotional responses... that we, unable to explain them rationaly, change our emotions to fit that which we CAN explain rationaly.  The worst part of this... is that we may never react emotionaly to that same thing again!

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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First off, I don't think anyone needs to be able to explain why they like or dislike something.  However, if someone wants to be able to have an intelligent conversation with someone else about the merits or faults of a particular piece of art -- be it a movie, a novel, a poem, a painting -- the ability to deconstruct the thing in question is essential.  Simply saying "I like/disklike this thing because I do" doesn't exactly allow room for discussion.

I also disagree that analyzing something changes one's emotional reaction to it.  Rather, I think that being analytical helps one understand why they feel as they do.  If a person's appreciation for something changes as a result of analyzing it, then I'd say that person A) forms judgements very quickly with little thought or B) is easily persuaded.

Being an English teacher, I've spent the better part of my academic life learning how to analyze literature, and now I spend my working life teaching others to do the same.  Like many students, I went through my phase of thinking 'why do we have to analyze everything?  Can't I just read a book and enjoy it without having to think about it?'  However, in retrospect, I'm glad I learned to be analytical as it has actually made me more appreciative of things like novels and films.  Now, when I see a movie, I don't just say to myself, "Well, that was cool."  Instead, I can say, "Wow, I like that movie because of its character arcs, its themes, its symbolism" and so on.

I say all this in light of having this very kind of discussion with a friend over the weekend.  We were discussing the movie Unbreakable which I love but he hates.  If I had simply said, "I like it because I like it," and he responded, "Oh yeah?  Well I hate it because I hate it," we wouldn't have had very much to talk about.  Instead, we each considered the other's arguments and insights.  At the end of the day, his hearing why I love the movie and my hearing why he hates the movie didn't change the other's opinion, but it allowed us to understand the each other's (and our own) reaction better.

“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers

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I was thinking about this again recently, and thought I'd figured it out.  Then I re-read the first post and saw that I had the exact same thoughts six months ago.

 

At any rate, I've been listening to the Creative Screenwriting Podcast a lot recently (highly recommended) and several screenwriters shared a similar experience.  They wrote a scene in their movie that they dearly loved.  They then realized that the scene "wasn't necessary" and so it was cut.  It made me wonder when "necessity" was the rule of law by which screenplays were written?  I think screenplays, or movies for that matter, are an excuse to get emotional thoughts in our heads.  If a scene is doing a good job at getting to our emotions, who cares if it is 'necessary' to the plot of the movie?  The emotion is good, the plot is what is needed to get to the emotion, but if you can arrive at the emotion any other way, is it not equally valid?

But still, I wonder if they don't know what they are talking about...  It makes me think of the editing Ridley Scott did on the Director's Cut of Alien.  For the most part, it's not scenes, and it might not even be seconds that are added or cut... it's frames.  Not anything that would affect your logical/rational response to the movie, but something that might very much affect your emotional response to it.  But who can tell?

And can you logically plan how people will respond to something emotionally?  Of course you can, but don't people see through that and call it shallow or cheap?  Calculating, instead of feeling?

How much does sound quality, invisible music, video quality, video resolution, colour, screen size, etc... all play into our emotional response to things?  It probably doesn't affect our rational response, right?  But it can totally change our emotional response.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi said:

...He may like a movie, here and there, but on the whole- he, in fact, did not like them.  I, on the other hand, like movies.  There are many that I don't like.   But, in gerenal, I like movies.

Sorry about quoting the first post, but I was re-reading it and something struck me.  I'm that guy.  And only in the sense that I don't consider myself a film snob, where I only watch movies of a certain genre or from a certian time or with a particular director or actor/actress.  I like movies here and there, but generally, I'd prefer to read or watch something educational on TV. 

And I realize that my watching or reading of historic documentaries and good books provide the same type enjoyment and escapism as a good movie, I just like non-fiction more.

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 (Edited)

I'm inclined to dislike things, as a rule.

There are so many forms of entertainment that achieve great popularity and acclaim that do absolutely nothing for me.  I continually react with indifference or outright contempt, and resist attempts to get me to agree with the established opinion.

Part of it is that I detest overly graphic violence, of which there is a proliferation in popular entertainment, and that limits my options considerably.  My imagination and 'empathy' towards what is happening are far too strong to allow such things to pass without unacceptable discomfort--I imagine what it would be like if it happened to me, and that makes it horrible and not fun.  I do recognise that there needs to be a distinction between the horror of real violence and the sort of 'clean' killing that takes place in many movies, but unfortunately I think that point is lost on many people--they become so desensitised that even the most ghastly images and acts cease to have any effect on them at all.

But my general dislike of things goes well beyond that.  I can't really explain a lot of it, but there's just some kind of disconnect between what other people like and what actually affects me in a positive way.  Take Seinfeld, for example: a tremendously successful tv show, but one which ultimately does very little for me.  I'll watch it if other people want to, and I'll laugh at all the funny parts, but I feel no real connection with it, and would actively prefer not to watch it if possible.  I feel the same way about nearly all popular music.  I don't like being bombarded with too many new things either, because I already know I'll react this way to most of them.

But then there are certain things that get to me in a huge way, and I admire and revere them beyond rational justification.  Star Wars of course is the obvious example for movies, no matter what Lucas has done recently.  The Lord of the Rings is such an excellent book series that I am still in awe of it (though the casual destruction of so many nuances of character and sense of place left me with little but cold disdain for the Jackson films).  I absolutely adore Metallica's first four albums, and music by Vivaldi and Bach speaks to me in a way that nothing else can even approximate.  Firefly is the best tv show I've ever seen, and the Legend of Zelda video games give me immense enjoyment.  There are many other things I like too; these are just some of the highest on the list.

For the most part I'm at loss to explain just why I like these things so much, other than that they're just that damn good.  In recent years I've become more adept at analysing works of art on a technical level and uncovering what makes them work or not work, but there is a huge subjective component to it all that no measure of logic can adequately describe.  I have no real conclusion to relate, so I'll end on that note.

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 (Edited)

I Like a virgin
Touched for the very first time
I Like a virgin
When your heart beats
Next to mine

I Like a virgin, ooh, ooh
I Like a virgin
Feels so good inside
When you hold me, and your heart beats, and you love me

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Ooh, baby
Can't you hear my heart beat
For the very first time?

 

... Seriously guys, are you psychanalysing yourselves ?

 

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Sorry, we can't all be... French.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Like a Surgeon
Cuttin' for the very first time
Like a Surgeon
Organ transplants are my line.

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lol, I was going to say I prefer Weird Al's version, but Frink beat me to it.  :p

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hairy_hen said:

 Take Seinfeld, for example: a tremendously successful tv show, but one which ultimately does very little for me.  I'll watch it if other people want to, and I'll laugh at all the funny parts, but I feel no real connection with it, and would actively prefer not to watch it if possible.

 Curb Your Enthusiasm is superior to Seinfeld in pretty much every way. Have you seen it? (It's written by the same guy who created and wrote most of Seinfeld, but he also stars in it, and he's funnier than every cast member of Seinfeld combined)

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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I love both shows but I disagree that CYE is superior "in every way."

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I've seen it but I couldn't really get into it either.

I think it's because I have little patience for what I term 'embarassment humour'.  By this I mean anything that derives its laughs from people acting stupidly in social situations and causing the 'straights' to react badly to them in response.  It can also be when everyone is equally dumb, and you just cringe watching them do anything at all.  This seems, for whatever reason, to be a very popular form of comedy, but I actively dislike it and prefer to avoid things that follow this kind of pattern.

Far preferable to me is flat-out absurdity and clever nonsense.  Monty Python's Flying Circus is still my favourite comedy show of all time, and of any recent show I've seen, 30 Rock is the one I enjoy most for this reason.

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I said:

How much does sound quality, invisible music, video quality, video resolution, colour, screen size, etc... all play into our emotional response to things?  It probably doesn't affect our rational response, right?  But it can totally change our emotional response.

I know the thread has been wandering a little bit into other territories since I posted this, but I wanted to come back to it.

When sound, colour, widescreen, surround sound, digital sound, DTS, etc. were introduced, movie goers reviewed the merits of the new technology to their favourite art-form objectively, or with their rational mind.  Perhaps people considered seeing the movie in B&W and then seeing the movie in colour, and while they could see the obvious 'gimmick' or 'novelty' in adding colour, they were forced to admit that it was basically the same movie.  You could tell the same story in B&W- so theoretically you weren't adding anything by putting it in colour.  But what they couldn't rationally measure was the emotional element.  Perhaps people thought they liked the story better in a movie that was in colour, or they thought the actors were better, or the action was more intense.  People might have come up with a lot of reasons that they thought a movie was better without correctly identifying which factor brought them into it emotionally.

I was thinking of this recently because I bought and added a "D-Box motion simulator" to my home theatre.  It's basically what you think: it's a mechanical chair that "moves" in synch with the movie you're watching.  (Think a smaller scale Star Tours, but for an entire movie, and you're on the right track.)  It's gimmicky as heck, and I love it.  I mentioned it to someone at work, and they thought it sounded like fun, but then they asked if made movies more enjoyable?  And when it's working correctly, I think the proper response to that is: I don't know.

I assume that when most of us get new sound equipment, we watch specific scenes out of specific movies to "demo" the sound equipment.  You might get down and put an ear next to the new speaker, or close your eyes and focus on what you're listening to, or any variety of bizzare things during the "demo".  You might take a special kind of enjoyment from this, but that's not how you actually plan on "using" the new equipment, right?  You plan, hopefully, on not thinking about the equipment as you sit down and get engrossed in a movie or whatever, right?  That's the difference between demoing and using.  During the demo phase, you focus on the hardware, or the technique itself, but during use: you almost want to forget it's there at all, right?  Any attention the equipment draws to itself is distracting, right?  So how can you rationally determine the value that the new sound equipment adds to the experience, when you shouldn't consciously notice that it's there?

I've "demoed" lots of cool scenes in my new chair, and they ARE AWESOME.  But I've actually sat down and used it a couple times too.  We watched Prince of Persia in the chair, and I have to say I liked the movie.  7.8/10.  Did I like it because the sound was nice and loud, the picture was nice, bright and big, because I watched it on BD instead of DVD, because there were no commercial breaks, because my chair rocked back and forth when there was action on the screen, or because it was just a fun time?  Or maybe my belly was full and my wife and I were having a nice little break from the kids.  Or maybe I just got paid.

I don't know.  I think that's the right answer.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi makes more money than Sluggo.  I don't like that.  Why don't I like that?  I'm a petty, jealous man.

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Sluggo said:

xhonzi makes more money than Sluggo.  I don't like that.  Why don't I like that?  I don't know.  I'm pretty sure that's the right answer.

 Fixed?

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Yeah, that's just as good as my answer.  I'm pretty sure that is the right answer.