Star Wars OT & 1997 Special Edition - Various Projects Info (Released) — Page 25

Radi0n said:

dark_jedi said:

although I wish I could keep them from some people.

Tough words, DJ, but that's your call of course.

Sorry, there are just a couple asses here that rub me the wrong way, but 99.9% of the people here are kick ass! very cool people, and have made a lot of friends here over the years.

DJ, PM me your address.  I managed to scrape together some cash, so I'll be sending you a pack of DLs by the end of the week.

ditto, please.

dark_jedi said:

rockin said:

Hey dark_jedi that sounds like a good deal.

But you do realise people are probably going to be sending you packs of DL's now you've said that? You'll probably end up with more than you would know what to do with. LOL :D

well no one has committed yet but 1 guy here, so we will see, it is cool either way, by NO MEANS is anyone at all obligated, these will be out for everyone sooner or later, although I wish I could keep them from some people.

I am willing to commit a 10 pk, just pm me your address.

Cheers

LexX said:

So are these going to be available as DL for those who aren't/can't send the DVDs? Can someone who gets them upload those versions?

YES! these WILL be available at some point for everyone to download, not sure from where yet,but yes, and they WILL be DVD9's.

starwarsfan PM me, I accidentally deleted a lot of my PM's and can't find a post by you to PM you back.

PM sent

starwarsfan8376 said:

PM sent

Thank you, I knew it was starwarsfan I just could not remember the numbers, and it seems there is no member search here.

PM sent back.

dark_jedi said:

Sorry, there are just a couple asses here that rub me the wrong way, but 99.9% of the people here are kick ass! very cool people, and have made a lot of friends here over the years.

 Amen brother.  Amen.

Thanks Doctor M, I hope you like them when they are finished, I know I will.

Here is an update on things, I have hairy_hens new ESB 5.1 mix now, after I finish '97 SE Jedi v2 I will get back to these, it should not take to long to finish up SW and ESB, then hopefully by then we will have h_h's new and improved Jedi 5.1 and g-force's Jedi script.

Hi everybody, this is my first post. Thanks dark jedi and all contributers for the hard work. I was wondering if the following is known and has been incorporated in your v3 in terms of coloring:

http://savestarwars.com/technicoloribscreening.html

Has anybody here attended that screening of the 1977 version?

Have you incorporated the information about color timing and the coloring of the pictures you can find at this link in your v3? They talk about a green-greyish Death Star coloring? Also the scene with Luke and the two moons at dusk is much lighter in the original 1977 version than in the 1993 gout.

Those don't look bad, but they almost look to bright, I will try to grab some of the images and do some comparison shots.

To bad they don't have all those film grabs in 1 rar file.

Yes, well in the article they actually talk about the color timing of some key scenes. What fascinates me is the greenish-greyish almost tank-like (if that's a word?) look throughout the whole movie and especially the Death Star interior. Also, the author tried to tweak the gout color timing to match the color timing seen in that very theater. Obviously, he succeeded according to the article. I.e., the color timing seen there didn't suffer any degradation but a very, very mild pink shift at the beginning of the movie. I think, the link is the best reference to the original color timing from 1977 as it was shown in theaters then, since this is one of THE original prints, only with a spliced in beginning for the 1981 re-release. Also, the little video segment on that page is very interesting and the theater owner also briefly discusses the Technicolor dye print and its excellent shape. In my opinion invaluable information for your ultimate v3.

The GOUT coloring is pretty off in most places, either through deliberate re-timing such as in the sunset scene or just through color fading. If you want a RAR of all the photos I made one, its just over 300MB, but they aren't perspective corrected, so you will be seeing the screen from an angle, and they are unnecessarily large as well (approx 10MB for most), so you will probably have to shrink them and then distort them, which is more work than it sounds. I posted about 70% of the photos with perspective correction, but there is about 10 more that you would have to do yourself to view them properly (this isn't 100% necessary of course). The coloring there isn'y 100% either, as there is some exposure and also white balance and print tint fluxuations, but they are probably the best colour reference currently available.

What about the color timing seen in the little movie segment on that page and the green-greyish style described in the article? I know, I know, I keep repeating myself...

three things are apparent from this screening.

1) The R2 canyon scene with the Jawas is supposed to be dusk. There was some debate about this since earlier home videos had the scene in bright day, as it was filmed. In 1993, it was re-timed to be dim and sunset-tinted, which was then greatly embellished in the Special Edition. It was reported that the earlier video versions were mis-timed. While the 1993 telecine might seem to exaggerate the sunset hue a bit, the scene in 1977 is definitely as dark as it is in current versions. There is a tiny green shift in the I.B. print, indicating it is actually slightly warmer.

2) There has also been much debate about how the binary sunset scene should look. Earlier home video versions had the scene very bright, and more subdued in its coloring. From 1993 onward, it has gotten significantly darker and more colourful. Based on the photographs here, it appears to have been actually in between the two extremes. It is fairly bright--which makes sense since it is a sunset, lit by direct light, not twilight--and colored a moderate amount of pink/orange. The 1993 transfer darkened it to twilight levels and introduced blue into the timing, providing lots of blue and purple gradients in shots, which the Special Editions have embellished. This 1977 print is basically consistent with the 1977 telecine bootleg, which wasn't reliable because of colour and contrast degradation over the generations of copying.

3) Also, there has been some debate over what colour the Death Star interiors should be. Most fan preservations try to get it grey; Adywan was famously a stickler to get totally neutral colours. The 2006 DVD and 1993/5 Laserdiscs sports this, but the 1985 print used is so washed out and pink-shifted from fading it would have undone any mild colouration that was originally there. This Technicolor transfer is interesting however. While there is always some discolouration or tinting in prints, and the white balance of the camera photographing the screen may shift things further, there is a consistency here in that the Death Star is rarely a neutral grey. It seems to have green in it in most shots to varying degrees, and blue in other shots, with poor consistency. You can tell it is on the print and not from the camera by the consistency and naturalness in skintones, which look far superior than any home video telecine. This is similar to the 70mm cells collection, which also was very green, and occassionally blue. In their book, The Movie Brats, from 1979, the authors refer to the Death Star as a "grey-green" world similar to the Nazis. Coincidence? Not likely. The 1977 telecine bootleg has a similar look. The balance of light, balance on the film stock, and timing of individual shots produced an environment that, even if it were actually painted pure grey (some colour photos from the set look suspiciously grey-green as well, which becomes blue under certain lighting conditions) is tinged. This should be considered a valid element of the film's original cinematography. I confirmed this by taking the 2006 DVD/1993/5LD and pumping up the saturation to the Technicolor levels and then dialing out the pink shift (which means adding green and some yellow) until skin tones looked natural as they do in the Technicolor print--the result was identical color balances. Below are examples of the blue and green tinting on the Technicolor print. You can see that the print and camera is responsible for some of it, but by the natural colour of the skin tones you can tell that it could not possible account for the entirety of the tint.

There is a bit of a green tint because of the print and/or white balance of the camera. It accounts for some of it, but not nearly all of it. Let's say about 20%.

I should mention though, that correcting the GOUT to look like that, on second thought, is a bit of a futile attempt. In all likelihood it would make it look worse. The reason being, there is so little color in the GOUT that when you pull it out you get all sorts of noise and colour patches and it looks kind of gross, it would probably be popping all over the place too. Even the milder saturation boosts on all the Avisynth projects had some colour popping issues, and also bleeding in the reds in some instances. I tried experimenting myself using the GOUT in photoshop to match the Technicolor levels but it just isn't the same, and video colour correction isn't as good as photoshop. If you were working from a film scan it would be different, but the GOUT is just really crappy 20 year old video and it can't withstand that much manipulation, at least from my own attempts. Personally I think leaving it as it is, or going with the milder saturation boost of previous attempts, is the best it can look colour-wise. You could maybe brighten the sunset scene and get rid of the blue, but I don't know if the noise would be too much.

…

Problem is, especially with old movies that have faded--there is no 100% colour reference. Nothing photochemical will last, so there actually is no perfect record. The best single reference, not just available but possible, is a Technicolor print, because it doesn't fade. It's a print, so it has it's own variables, but this is what a restorationist would use. It's what YCM Labs actually did use for 1997 Star Wars restoration colour reference.

The truth is that every colourist eyeballs it to some degree when grading a film because its impossible to get it 100% right. You can start with the Technicolor print as the base, try to collect other film pieces and information, perhaps consult with those involved in the film if you think they are reliable--which, with old movies where you would need them because the prints have faded, they sometimes aren't as reliable as everyone pretends they are--and then use your own judgement to make little tweaks to brightness and contrast. The result is about 95% accurate but if you could get in a time machine and travel back and view the answer print when it was fresh from the lab you would probably find that a scene that you thought had 53 points of yellow actually had 47 points, or something like that. But to your eye it probably "looks" basically accurate.

So, when the restoration of Star Wars happens, they will be looking at the Technicolor print and matching that, perhaps not to 100% faithfullness but it will be the guide to how things should "look".

Correct, I agree. That's what I was talking about in my post above. They showed the 77 version from a Technicolor dye print which is - considering the age - in excellent shape. Also, I am well aware of the brightness issue but I mean for the color timing of the original movie as shown upon its original release in 77, it's THE best source out there today - certainly better than the known bootleg tape where one cannot see the real color timing since the bootleg tape is a x times generation copy which suffers from noise and color bleeding also.

Guys, this is the real thing - a Technicolor dye print from the first generation, namely 77.

As far as I know, all later releases (including home video) are from the 85 cleaned up telecine which used a new generation transfer from the original 77 negative. But of course, when printing from the original negative, the original color timing is lost and it has to be done again for the new interpositive, of course the result is not 100% equal. So since 1985 those new transfers with the replicated color timing from the original negative have been used for home and TV releases and also as a basic source for the 1993 THX laserdisc release. So again, this recently shown Technicolor dye print is the real and best thing that's out there, of course apart from the original negatives that might be available somewhere, savely stored away at Lucasfilm.

And again guys, I am not talking about brightness so much as color timing in general. When you see the colors it looks somehow 1970ish and relatively warm - my impression.

And remember, dark jedi's definitive v3 is supposed to look like it was shown on its original release in 77. So this Techicolor dye print is THE reference.

Please also note, I am mostly refering to this section of the article:

It seems to have green in it in most shots to varying degrees, and blue in other shots, with poor consistency. You can tell it is on the print and not from the camera by the consistency and naturalness in skintones, which look far superior than any home video telecine. This is similar to the 70mm cells collection, which also was very green, and occassionally blue. In their book, The Movie Brats, from 1979, the authors refer to the Death Star as a "grey-green" world similar to the Nazis. Coincidence? Not likely. The 1977 telecine bootleg has a similar look. The balance of light, balance on the film stock, and timing of individual shots produced an environment that, even if it were actually painted pure grey (some colour photos from the set look suspiciously grey-green as well, which becomes blue under certain lighting conditions) is tinged. This should be considered a valid element of the film's original cinematography. I confirmed this by taking the 2006 DVD/1993/5LD and pumping up the saturation to the Technicolor levels and then dialing out the pink shift (which means adding green and some yellow) until skin tones looked natural as they do in the Technicolor print--the result was identical color balances. Below are examples of the blue and green tinting on the Technicolor print. You can see that the print and camera is responsible for some of it, but by the natural colour of the skin tones you can tell that it could not possible account for the entirety of the tint.