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The Conspiracy Theories Thread(was: 911 Conspiracy theories) — Page 5

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Darth Id said:

Anyway, both this and the other thread should be locked.  Discussing "9/11" without discussing "conspiracy theories" (or dignifying the pejorative connotation of the phrase) is like discussing WWII without mentioning the Axis Powers; or discussing Star Wars without mentioning George Lucas; or discussing the OOT without mentioning the SEs; or TPM without Jar-Jar; or C3PO without R2D2; or Obama without Soetoro; or Sega without Genesis; or Teddy without Chappaquiddic; or Nixon without brow sweat; or Palin without bikinis & AKs; or Paul without John; or break-ups without Yoko...

Good luck with that thread lock.  If you don't want this thread, don't read it.

And the other thread is for remembrance of the victims.  Why is that so hard to understand?

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I think you guys are all totally overlooking the obvious:

Aliens did it.

Every 27th customer will get a ball-peen hammer, free!

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You're blaming James Cameron?

Best theory yet.

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Warbler said:

if you were a female 16-40 or whatever age, would you not be afraid that pics of your body were being used as jack off material? 

You yourself may have no problem with nudity, but surely each person has the right the make up his/her mind about that, don't they?  Especially when the nudity involves his/her body itself. 

Well, again, this is why I'm asking questions.  I still don't know if this is any different from any other X-ray machine.  Because, honestly, there's a philia for everything, and if someone would really feel titillated seeing a photograph of my skeleton used to see if I have a box knife hidden away up in my prostate (oh, wait, I'm a female in this hypothetical scenario, so... other body cavity I guess), well, I gotta say it's really not gonna bother me that much.  It's not as though if that kind of image shows up on the internet, I'm going to get calls from relatives saying, "Oh my gosh, I just saw photos of not only your naked left tibia but your scapula on a paysite!"  So, yes, I still have my two questions:

1.  Is this some new high-tech "remove clothes" beam rather than the traditional "I'm a haunted house reject" X-ray machine?
2.  Do they take photographs to keep on record with this new "remove clothes" beam, or does the image only exist for the duration you're walking through it?

And, yes, I agree.  People do have the right to make that choice for themselves.  I am by no means advocating that my views should apply for everyone (although I personally think if everyone thought like me, the world would be a better, albeit extremely confusing, place =P), but in a way I'm wondering if this doesn't tie back in to our earlier discussion about business freedom.  People can make a choice.  They can choose to find other means of transportation if this methodology bothers them.  It's not like government officials are banging down our doors to make us go through the "remove clothes" beam.  Only those who make the choice to fly.  And if enough people are truly uncomfortable by this thought, airline sales will drop.  Yes, the government does have a much larger hand in airlines than in other commercial businesses.  But, really, I wonder if people just refuse to fly, if airlines could put enough pressure on government to do away with what the majority believes is an invasion of privacy.  Don't know if that's in any way realistic or not, but I'm just throwing that out there for thought.

Personally, I agree with C3PX's line of thought that putting armed federal marshals on planes would just be the simplest way to deal with all of this nonsense.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Gaffer Tape said: but in a way I'm wondering if this doesn't tie back in to our earlier discussion about business freedom.  People can make a choice.  They can choose to find other means of transportation if this methodology bothers them. 

maybe, but how far can airlines go with this.  Suppose they wanted to require that passengers fly fully nude?   Are they free to do that?   

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^I wonder what Sam Jackson would say about that?

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Warbler said:

Gaffer Tape said: but in a way I'm wondering if this doesn't tie back in to our earlier discussion about business freedom.  People can make a choice.  They can choose to find other means of transportation if this methodology bothers them. 

maybe, but how far can airlines go with this.  Suppose they wanted to require that passengers fly fully nude?   Are they free to do that?  

Too late!

http://bajan.wordpress.com/2008/02/01/first-it-was-nude-beachesthen-nude-tourist-resortsnow-nude-airline/ (nsfw)

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Bingowings said:

C3PX the reason why you haven't heard of an air marshal bringing a plane down is because thankfully there haven't been many cases of one discharging his weapon while the cabin was compressed.

I know. That was the point I was trying to make. Even though we have them up there, they are not bringing down planes. So, statistically speaking, I don't see why you, or anyone else, should be so uncomfortable with the idea of having them up there.

As for the other stuff you said in your post, such as Al-Qeda being made up, it was very interesting. Have any sources on that information?

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Darth Id said:

Anyway, both this and the other thread should be locked. 

...

Please.  9/11 upsets me, as it should any reasonable person.  Let's stick with the space operas, people.

Why would you even come into this thread if you are so uncomfortable talking/reading about this stuff? And why do you feel the need to dictate what others do on here? Stick to whatever threads you like yourself, and don't worry about what anyone else does. "Stick with the space operas" if all you want to do is discuss Star Wars, then I strongly suggest you ONLY go into the Star Wars related sections and not wonder into the off-topic section to tell us we shouldn't be off-topic.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

Bingowings said:

C3PX the reason why you haven't heard of an air marshal bringing a plane down is because thankfully there haven't been many cases of one discharging his weapon while the cabin was compressed.

I know. That was the point I was trying to make. Even though we have them up there, they are not bringing down planes. So, statistically speaking, I don't see why you, or anyone else, should be so uncomfortable with the idea of having them up there.

As for the other stuff you said in your post, such as Al-Qeda being made up, it was very interesting. Have any sources on that information?

The earliest document I can trace mentioning the term is here dated 1996.

But it was in reference to an informal nickname derived from the training camp where Bin Laden's men, then calling themselves The Islamic Salvation Foundation (which sounds like an incarnation of Prince's numerous backing groups to me) were a small number of the assembled group .

It wasn't until Jamal al-Fadl became a paid informant that the term became the official label for an organisation rather than just an informal nickname for the 'boys from the base'.

Something Bin Laden would later retcon into being his idea all along (just to keep the famous brand flying).

 

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Gaffer Tape said:

1.  Is this some new high-tech "remove clothes" beam rather than the traditional "I'm a haunted house reject" X-ray machine?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/13/manchester-airport-naked-security-scan

2.  Do they take photographs to keep on record with this new "remove clothes" beam, or does the image only exist for the duration you're walking through it?

Not sure. But I still feel it is far more invasive than necessary.

 

TV's Frink said:

^Didn't I basically say the same thing?

You did. Sorry, just now read it. Been having trouble finding the time to keep up with this thread.

 

Thanks for the links Bingo and Id. I'll be looking over those when I get a chance.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

Gaffer Tape said:

1.  Is this some new high-tech "remove clothes" beam rather than the traditional "I'm a haunted house reject" X-ray machine?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/13/manchester-airport-naked-security-scan

Okay, I have to say that article makes it sound much better than I thought.  First off, it's in Manchester, so it's not even an American concern at the moment.  Second, it's entirely optional.  If you want to save time, would rather not be patted down, and don't mind "one officer in a remote location" seeing your goodies "before it is deleted," then you have this option.  I can see the concern people might have in it becoming a mandatory practice, but for the moment at least, it's nothing of the sort.  And since "they cannot be stored or captured in any way," Warbler's jack off material concern is moot.  Not to mention it doesn't really look all that sexy.  So for right now, I really don't see anything wrong with it.  Since it's optional and given a clear alternative, it seems the people will decide how far a system like this gets.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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When I first heard about it (around 2006-2007, I believe), I don't think it was optional. I think the first article I read about it was before it was first installed in the airport and people were making a big deal about it, which is probably why it ended up being optional. Not sure what ever became of it or if it ended up in other airports. That article I linked to was pretty old. Since Bingowings was mentioned it a few times, I assumed they took root and were being used at least in the UK, but maybe not. 

While you may not feel it is a very big deal, it is still providing airport security a image of your naked body, and a lot of people are not going to be comfortable with that. I simply do not think that type of invasion of privacy is necessary. It is taking things way too far.

When technology has advanced to the point where the powers that be can develop machines with the power to tell how much hair is on my back, what sized cock ring I am wearing, and whether or not my girlfriend has implants, I think it is time for some hideous turn of events to knock us back a few years. There are some places technology was simply not meant to go, and we are heading there fast.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

While you may not feel it is a very big deal, it is still providing airport security a image of your naked body, and a lot of people are not going to be comfortable with that. I simply do not think that type of invasion of privacy is necessary. It is taking things way too far.

 

I don't disagree with any particular thing you've said, except that I want to reiterate that, according to the article you linked to at least, not a single person will be providing airport security with an image of their naked body unless they actively consent to do so. No one has to be uncomfortable. Nobody has to feel that their privacies are being violated in that way. The ones who choose to do it obviously wouldn't feel that way, and the ones who do obviously wouldn't go through the process. As long as it's ONLY like that, then I really don't see a single thing wrong with it. If it progresses to something mandatory, and people are up in arms over it, I'll certainly agree with you that it's gone too far. But maybe Bingowings would like to chime in with some more recent perspective. How is that experiment going along anyway?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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The current state of these scanners may only titillate people who are (as Charlie Brooker puts it) into "ghost porn".

But remember how luggage scanning has progressed over the years from basic X-Rays to isolatable layers where individual objects can clearly be picked out, to the latest innovation touch feedback where an examiner can get the sensation of feeling inside the closed bag and virtually touch and handle the individual objects inside.

During my nightmare Christmas trip to nowhere via Edinburgh airport I was struck by how the airport experience has become similar to the processing (at the risk of being Godwinned) seen in Nazi death camps.

By way of a recap :

Bingowings said:

I've just had a hell of a time.

My flight down to spend Christmas with my folks has been canceled and the airport and the flight company handled it terribly.

Gatwick was closed at 3pm but they didn't warn anyone got everyone into the airport, through a huge queue to check in, through security and waiting in the lounge before announcing a cancellation that the goon from Costa Coffee already knew about because he was taking the Mick out of us all by shouting taunts at us.

We were then sent down to pick up our luggage (which took two hours) and they changed  carousels without telling anyone (lucky for us someone noticed their bags on the the other carousel and alerted everyone.

Then we had to wait for 2 more hours in another queue only to have some woman come up with a piece of paper telling us that we can sort out a refund online.

Had to get a taxi back to Falkirk which cost £55 (the whole day cost about £100) and i'm not sure if I'm going to be able to get a train or flight at short notice (especially the weather keeps up).

So possibly Christmas is mostly cancelled in Chateau Bingowings.

Every muscle in my body aches from standing in lines with a rucksack full of smalls on my back...

...Just checked the price of a last minute train £209 quid (return I guess) but times that by two and it becomes impossible.

What makes it worse is that if they knew we were canceled when they sent us through security they traumatised some wee girl by getting her mother to hurriedly get her woken up, out of her buggy, strip her coat, scarf and shoes off, mangling the head of her teddy bear in front of her face and frisking and scanning her mother with her screaming all the time.

It was one of those toys with a plush body and a soft plastic head so they didn't pull the head off but the woman at security grabbed it off her and pushed her fingers into it's eyes and squeezed it's head in.

The girl must have been about 2 years old and clearly at the toy as 'little friend' stage. It was obviously a favorite toy that she didn't want to let go of so snatching it off her and doing that in front of her must of been terrifying.

Why they couldn't have turned it into game I don't know.

I would have told the girl that the scanner machine was a little train ride or something like that and took her mind off it that way (surely the scanner would have picked up anything inside).

They frisk random people after going through the detector (usually about 1 in 5).

One woman had to take thigh length boots off (nothing kinky they were gum boot style wellies because of the snow but she had a time trying to get them off).

I ended up being frisked myself. The last time I flew I had lost a lot of weight due to ill health and they made me take my belt off so I had to keep my trousers up with my hand going through (as a boy I used to travel in my kilt which would be impossible now).

Having a stranger snatch her hand while some mysterious machine ran all over her mum must have been confusing too.

It was horrible and under the circumstances completely pointless seeing as Gatwick was closed at three and most of the other London area airports and Luton were closed before then. They must have known none of us were actually flying anywhere.

I don't think David Lynch could create a more distressing scene and all for nothing.

The poor thing didn't have a clue what was going on.

Canceling a flight never nice but often necessary but why do they ask for our phone numbers if they aren't going to warn us of cancellations and why go through the stupid excesses (and I do think it's daft that they wont let you take a fountain pen in hand luggage but BA give you a glass bottle on the plane) of the security check if they know the flight isn't going to happen?

The long lines, the reduction of personality down to a barcode and number, the intrusion into property and dignity, the passive compliance. I know of people who have been asked to switch on their laptops and had encrypted business documents poked over in breach of data protection law.

I'm not saying that some procedure isn't necessary, airplanes have the potential to become devastating weapons but so can motor vehicles and trains even unguarded reservoirs and dining areas. I posted some time ago about the chaos caused by Ursula and Sabina Eriksson on the M6, all they had was their bodies (and tragically later a knife) to use as weapons and they were even trying to create terror.

Safety is never going to absolute but such procedures should be proportional to the risk (which is still slight otherwise you would be hearing more of different forms of attack other than using airplanes where these measures don't apply).

Political climates change, sometimes alarmingly, Hitler went from a marginalised joke to national dictator and international menace in a very short space of time.

Something introduced in all innocence can be turned against a population after a sudden regime change.

The potential for harm caused by the abuse of the mechanisms of state greatly outweighs the risks posed by a handful of brainwashed wannabe martyrs.

 

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Hmm.  I'm going to be riding a plane in about ten days, so I'd be interested to see what's up with that.  I actually did quite a bit of traveling by plane last summer, and that was really my first time to do so since 9/11, and I have to say I didn't find it bad at all.  Certainly nothing on par with what I just read in your post.  Of course I'm not saying you're exaggerating in the least.  I just find it odd that your country seems even more "gung-ho" about the whole thing.  That does sound pretty terrible.

Oh, and just out of curiosity, since this particular parenthetical caught my interest, why would traveling in your kilt be impossible now?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Because I'd have to take the belt, and the pin off which are the bare essentials from keeping my bare essentials from going public.

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Bingowings said:


Because I'd have to take the belt, and the pin off which are the bare essentials from keeping my bare essentials from going public.
Sad story, great coda.

Star Wars Revisited Wordpress

Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress

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Gaffer Tape said:

Hmm.  I'm going to be riding a plane in about ten days, so I'd be interested to see what's up with that.  I actually did quite a bit of traveling by plane last summer, and that was really my first time to do so since 9/11,

I'd say its been about 25 years since I've been on the plane.  I've only flown twice, when my family took two vacations in Disney World.   I haven't been on a plane since.  

doubleofive said:

 

Bingowings said:


Because I'd have to take the belt, and the pin off which are the bare essentials from keeping my bare essentials from going public.
Sad story, great coda.

 

I'd advise wearing something under the Kilt.

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This isn't 911 related but I couldn't think of another existing thread to put this on and it doesn't really warrant another thread.

Maybe Warb might like to drop the 911 bit to make it a general conspiracy theory thread.

I'm posting this as what I see as the sort of legitimate subject to ask questions about which probably inevitably  leads to speculation of a conspiratorial flavour.

Which then gets instantly reported in the same vein as the Bermuda triangle and aliens.

No doubt some speculation of this kind is oddball and leaps in bizarre tangents to unconvincing conclusions but if the phones were ringing (unless Malaysian phones work differently) it's a vector worthy of investigation. As is the transponder story.

These are real people so it makes sense to ask these questions so sticking that sort of query in the same hat as fantasy is very distasteful.