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STAR WARS: EP V "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - 12GB 1080p MP4 VERSION AVAILABLE NOW — Page 759

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It's a classic case of the lady and the laddie protesting too much (and the counter opposite of the rubbish romance in the PT)

"You annoy the hell out of me"

"No you annoy the hell out of me more"

"Screw you, you, you delicious she devil"

"You start first and I'll join in later"

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TV's Frink said:

My opinion, since you didn't ask:

Leia facelift = FAIL

Agree with Family Guy = Double FAIL

 

 - Please consider my posts to be an open invite for honest evaluation and opinion about any proposed changes to ESB that I make :-)

  If Leia's hanger briefing is cut out, and the General's "two at a time" is cut off before Leia speaks, or altogether cut, than the -21 year old in the snowbunny suit is top military expert and and commander- would be fixed. It would create other problems. The ion cannon and the transport ships would need set-ups. If a voice over the PA announces a cannon test, then a cut to the cannon traversing, that might be a set-up. If a voice announces the ships landed, then a cut to the ships, that might be a set-up. Audience sees transports and fighters, they'll know what the fighters do 

 

 

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thejediknighthusezni said:

  If Leia's hanger briefing is cut out, and the General's "two at a time" is cut off before Leia speaks, or altogether cut, than the -21 year old in the snowbunny suit is top military expert and and commander- would be fixed. It would create other problems. The ion cannon and the transport ships would need set-ups. If a voice over the PA announces a cannon test, then a cut to the cannon traversing, that might be a set-up. If a voice announces the ships landed, then a cut to the ships, that might be a set-up. Audience sees transports and fighters, they'll know what the fighters do 

 

 

The whole point of the Star Wars true fanedits was to get rid of those god awful "Lucas Captain Obvious" dialogue entries, as well as additional scenes that were unneeded. If all those set-ups you mention above are reinserted, the crowd will go nuts...

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I can't see the point in cutting that, it sets up just how difficult it is to get through the blockade and it (thanks to Carrie and the photography) doesn't stick out like the tedious exposition scenes in TPM.

Besides I thought we were meant to believe that Leia was in charge (Carrie really pulls that off in this film).

There may not be many 21 year old generals these days (Alexander The Great had conquered the known world and died by 32 though). There are people making strategic life and death decisions of around that age even in the military and the Rebellion is a resistance movement.

Leia is more like Joan Of Arc (executed at 19) in that respect so I don't have a problem with her being a military strategist or a leader at that age. It's not like she's even doing it all on her own she has other command staff there to give experienced advice.

It's not like Nat Portman in the PT who I never bought as a Queen, resistance leader, politician or even as a broad strokes depiction of a human being.

You could make a point for backing up the line in question with more impressive visuals (and Ady has improved them) but cutting the line out just instinctively feels like pointless vandalism to me.

If anyone wants to give it a go and show us how it could work I'd be happy to watch it and I'd be the first to stick my hands up and say I was wrong if it was an improvement.

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Adywan, I love what you've done to the Emperor's hologram, I was appalled at how that was handled in the DVD release - the Emperor looked "wrong", I can't explain it.  Was it poorly lit and composited?

Although I do think the make-up used in ROTS which was used for this scene of post-deformation Sidious was wrong, it should've been much more subtle and not trying to emulate ROTJ exactly, without make-up McDiarmid and the hood in TPM/ATOC looked far more like how he did in ROTJ than he did WITH the make-up in ROTS!!!  What went wrong?

Also, what on earth is wrong with McDiarmid's voice after the Mace conflict??  Going off topic...

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thejediknighthusezni said:

- Please consider my posts to be an open invite for honest evaluation and opinion about any proposed changes to ESB that I make :-)

  If Leia's hanger briefing is cut out, and the General's "two at a time" is cut off before Leia speaks, or altogether cut, than the -21 year old in the snowbunny suit is top military expert and and commander- would be fixed. It would create other problems. The ion cannon and the transport ships would need set-ups. If a voice over the PA announces a cannon test, then a cut to the cannon traversing, that might be a set-up. If a voice announces the ships landed, then a cut to the ships, that might be a set-up. Audience sees transports and fighters, they'll know what the fighters do
If I'm reading this right, people are seriously suggesting that we cut out scenes of Leia leading the Rebels because she's too young.

Let's break down what she did when she was 18:
- Lied to the Emperor's right-hand man.
- Continued to lie as she was being "mind probed".
- Was snarky to a Grand Moff.
- Lied to a Grand Moff as he had a gun pointed at her home planet.
- As soon as she was rescued, she took command of her own rescue operation.
- Managed to complete her mission regardless.

If anything, she deserves to be in command. It doesn't matter her age.

As for cutting out her sarcastic remarks to Han, I can't believe it. If we cut her leadership scenes and made her sarcasm more worried then we would end up with a tag-along character and would forget why Han would need to rescue her except for her title and Leia being self-defensive around Han would become her being whiny around Han and we'd all wonder why he wanted her so badly to begin with!

I'm not against suggestions, but this is to unbelievable for me to get behind, especially for this edit that is more of a preservation anyway.

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^^ You tell 'em man!!!

 

I got an idea...Why not make it a silent film, with just action and no dialogue....Yeah, that'll work!! **

 

**Note: Sarcasm

 

 

 

 

 

 

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TV's Frink said:

My opinion, since you didn't ask:

Leia facelift = FAIL

Agree with Family Guy = Double FAIL

 

 

:p

You can never go home again, but i guess you can shop there.

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doubleofive said:

 

thejediknighthusezni said:

- Please consider my posts to be an open invite for honest evaluation and opinion about any proposed changes to ESB that I make :-)

  If Leia's hanger briefing is cut out, and the General's "two at a time" is cut off before Leia speaks, or altogether cut, than the -21 year old in the snowbunny suit is top military expert and and commander- would be fixed. It would create other problems. The ion cannon and the transport ships would need set-ups. If a voice over the PA announces a cannon test, then a cut to the cannon traversing, that might be a set-up. If a voice announces the ships landed, then a cut to the ships, that might be a set-up. Audience sees transports and fighters, they'll know what the fighters do
If I'm reading this right, people are seriously suggesting that we cut out scenes of Leia leading the Rebels because she's too young.

Let's break down what she did when she was 18:
- Lied to the Emperor's right-hand man.
- Continued to lie as she was being "mind probed".
- Was snarky to a Grand Moff.
- Lied to a Grand Moff as he had a gun pointed at her home planet.
- As soon as she was rescued, she took command of her own rescue operation.
- Managed to complete her mission regardless.

If anything, she deserves to be in command. It doesn't matter her age.

As for cutting out her sarcastic remarks to Han, I can't believe it. If we cut her leadership scenes and made her sarcasm more worried then we would end up with a tag-along character and would forget why Han would need to rescue her except for her title and Leia being self-defensive around Han would become her being whiny around Han and we'd all wonder why he wanted her so badly to begin with!

I'm not against suggestions, but this is to unbelievable for me to get behind, especially for this edit that is more of a preservation anyway.

 

Good points OO5 (Leia is 19yo in ANH though. ^^). I don't think Leia's role as a leader should be cut what so ever. However, the "2 fighters against a Star Destroyer" line has always sounded really flat. That's also suppose to be Hobbie (Luke's wingman during the Battle of Hoth) saying that who I assume had lines with Luke during the battle but were probably cut because they sounded just as flat. Something could be technically done about that, voice over or something.

Also taking age into consideration... fierfekking GL has a 14 year-old as a Queen of an entire planet. Luke flew the Death Star run at 19yo and is the Commander of Rogue Squadron at 21yo (although it seems their retconning the timeline now so this will have a degree of error). For all we know being a royal of Alderaan means you are trained in military tactics and doctrine along with politics. Makes sense.

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                          The impossible is what Rogues do best...

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He may have sounded a bit flat but he sounded realistically flat (sometimes people do speak without sparkle).

The "Copy....Gold Leader" guy from the reactor run in ROTJ looked and sounded  like he was reading his lines from a post it note on the cameraman's head.

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If you cut Leia's scenes, then you will end up with how her character ended up in ROTJ. To me, she is supposed to be a leader...after all, she is a Princess being groomed to rule a planet. Cut out her abilities to lead an army or participate and you end up with a damsel in distress, which is how I view her character in ROTJ. Would Han Solo or Luke have been that interested if she was a tag along?

Sorry if I'm late the party...been busy in recent times.

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Rogue Leader said:

For all we know being a royal of Alderaan means you are trained in military tactics and doctrine along with politics. Makes sense.

Alderaan is peacefull planet of pacifist, I'm not sure they trained for military tactics. I think she's there to rally the people like Joan of arc. It is an emergency, and have not enough fighter to escort the ships properly.

In the world war there was pilots who was 20 yo, and commanded squadrons, it's not depending age, but experience and ability.

Cheers.

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astromech said:


If you cut Leia's scenes, then you will end up with how her character ended up in ROTJ. To me, she is supposed to be a leader...after all, she is a Princess being groomed to rule a planet. Cut out her abilities to lead an army or participate and you end up with a damsel in distress, which is how I view her character in ROTJ. Would Han Solo or Luke have been that interested if she was a tag along?

Sorry if I'm late the party...been busy in recent times.
I was thinking that for my rant, but I left it out. SEE ALSO: Padme in Episode III.

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I don't have a problem with any of the Vader holograms in TESB, just a simple color correction/touch up should do.

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Bingowings said:

I can't see the point in cutting that, it sets up just how difficult it is to get through the blockade and it (thanks to Carrie and the photography) doesn't stick out like the tedious exposition scenes in TPM.

Besides I thought we were meant to believe that Leia was in charge (Carrie really pulls that off in this film).

There may not be many 21 year old generals these days (Alexander The Great had conquered the known world and died by 32 though). There are people making strategic life and death decisions of around that age even in the military and the Rebellion is a resistance movement.

Leia is more like Joan Of Arc (executed at 19) in that respect so I don't have a problem with her being a military strategist or a leader at that age. It's not like she's even doing it all on her own she has other command staff there to give experienced advice.

   "It sets up how difficult..." It does do that. 5 seconds later it does the exact opposite.

   There are four reveals:

1.) The rebels have transport ships.- No problem there. But what if, instead, the viewers are tipped off by a pre-battle cut to the control center. A voice on the receiver says "Transports 3 and 5 have landed. We need the loadmasters, NOW!" Then a quick shot of the ships. An opportunity to increase the tension and sense of urgency? Better than leia's simple reveal that they have transports?

2.) The fighters will be guarding the transports.- That's a little bit "Duh" once we know they have transports. What else would the fighters be doing? Sightseeing? Could save that reveal for first launch.

3.) There are only two fighters per transport.- "Oh no! it's almost hopeless!" Good idea, but does it help all that much? Doesn't everybody already think that they are vastly outmatched?

4.) They have an "Ion Cannon" powerful enough to blow star destroyers out of the way.- This is where they blew off far more tension than they had managed to build up with "Two fighters..." "Oh, it might be okay. they can beat back enormous star destroyers."  Pre-battle, what if, instead, we hear a voice on the PA saying "Prepare for ion cannon test." then a quick shot of the cannon traversing and extending the gun? "Oh, they've got some kind of 'Ion Cannon'. Is it enough to help them at all? Is it going to be some kind of pea-shooter? Just a futile, vainglorious gesture?" That tension would build up all the way to the star destroyers spinning out of their path.

  Actually, I liked the 'Joan of Arc 14 year old girl leading the assault on the castle.' I didn't think the acting was that important (N.P. became quite a good actress by ROTS.) That and the sabre duel were the two brighter spots in TPM. The big problem was pre-battle. Stiff mattered there, and her only military advisor was...JAR-JAR??!... WTF??! A big problem is costume. At least Padame wore something from a very different time and place. Leia looks just precisely like she's going to snap on her ski's and head for the chairlift.

  But this storm I've managed to kick up (I like it. Pissed off makes better points :-) has got me thinking. Compromise?  Would the 21 year old snowbunny tellin' the 55 year old General the business in "Two transports...", together with taking over the C.C. after it's hit, be enough to satisfy the 'Joan of Arc' thing?

   I might be able to handle that, but the 'Hanger Briefing' is a hopeless mess for several other reasons I could mention. To that I say "NI', NI',NI'!"    

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I find this discussion of editing the briefing scene, kinda pointless. We all know Ady will NOT be changing this.

Personally I have never had any trouble with this scene. Leia IS a leader of the rebel alliance. She has military experience (4 years with the Rebels).

It is never stated who came up with the tacitical plan anyway. Leia is just the one briefing the pilots which needs to happen anyway. Perhaps she consulted the Generals.

It is fine the way it is.

Matticon

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Yeah Nat Portman could/can act but she didn't much in TPM or in the PT in general (that's pretty much down to Lucas only Ian manages anything like a performance in that film and that's in a cast with seasoned actors with stage experience).

Leia is wearing those clothes for the same reason the other Rebels in the command centre are...it's freezing cold, what should she be wearing exactly?

She wore a nightie in ANH because she was captured while doing her Senatorial princess undercover work and it was warm on Yavin, She wore a bounty hunter disguise in ROTJ to get into the palace and a metal bikini because Jabba is a fat pervy slug. She spent the rest of the film in combat gear (the only weird dress choice in that one was the Ewok's little Earth goddess number...Ewoks eat the men, worship the droids and dress up the girls). The Bespin Dinner outfit was a strange choice for evening wear but at least she got out of the frozen weather outfit. On the whole Leia's clothing makes perfect sense.

A lot more sense than dressing Jedi in Moisture Farmer outfits which restrict movement and going to the trouble of putting on forest camo and then dragging along a gold reflective fussy protocol droid (even if he did turn out to useful).

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Gok Wan Solo says :

Gok Wan Solo

"You should wear girl's clothes more often...but not those clothes."

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Matticon said:

I find this discussion of editing the briefing scene, kinda pointless. We all know Ady will NOT be changing this.

Personally I have never had any trouble with this scene. Leia IS a leader of the rebel alliance. She has military experience (4 years with the Rebels).

It is never stated who came up with the tacitical plan anyway. Leia is just the one briefing the pilots which needs to happen anyway. Perhaps she consulted the Generals.

It is fine the way it is.

Matticon

 Yeah, what he said, as well as Radi0n, Bingowings, euroherbal, doubleofive, HotRod, Rogue Leader, Handzzz, and mfastx.

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Bingowings said:...Ewoks eat the men, worship the droids and dress up the girls

Typical of most sci-fi geeks.

My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.

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thejediknighthusezni said:

1.) The rebels have transport ships.- No problem there. But what if, instead, the viewers are tipped off by a pre-battle cut to the control center. A voice on the receiver says "Transports 3 and 5 have landed. We need the loadmasters, NOW!" Then a quick shot of the ships. An opportunity to increase the tension and sense of urgency? Better than leia's simple reveal that they have transports?

The fact that the Rebels have transport ships is established well before Leia's speech.

Rebel Officer: "Groups 7 and 10 will stay behind to fly the Speeders. As soon as each transport is loaded, Evacuation Control will give clearance for immediate launch."

(Hey look! What are those things behind the Rebel Officer... could those be "Rebel Transport Ships"?)

During Luke's conversation with 2-1B:

2-1B: "Sir, it will take quite a while to evacuate the T-47s."

Luke: "Well, forget the heavy equipment, there's plenty of time to get the smaller modules on the transports."

2.) The fighters will be guarding the transports.- That's a little bit "Duh" once we know they have transports. What else would the fighters be doing? Sightseeing? Could save that reveal for first launch.

The point of her dialogue was that there would ONLY be TWO fighter escorts per ship. This implies that there usually were normally a larger amount of escorts.

3.) There are only two fighters per transport.- "Oh no! it's almost hopeless!" Good idea, but does it help all that much? Doesn't everybody already think that they are vastly outmatched?

The pilot's response, "Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?!" shows that he was poopin' his pants at the thought. It certainly raised his level of dramatic tension.

4.) They have an "Ion Cannon" powerful enough to blow star destroyers out of the way.- This is where they blew off far more tension than they had managed to build up with "Two fighters..." "Oh, it might be okay. they can beat back enormous star destroyers."  Pre-battle, what if, instead, we hear a voice on the PA saying "Prepare for ion cannon test." then a quick shot of the cannon traversing and extending the gun? "Oh, they've got some kind of 'Ion Cannon'. Is it enough to help them at all? Is it going to be some kind of pea-shooter? Just a futile, vainglorious gesture?" That tension would build up all the way to the star destroyers spinning out of their path.

Thanks to Kersh's direction and the tight editing, the Ion Cannon reveal has all the tension you could hope for. We have heard the Ion Cannon mentioned, but we don't know, we haven't seen what it will really do. The tension of the battle begins with the rebel snow soldiers looking to the horizon...

...then to the entrance of Echo Base

...then into the Command Center "Prepare to open shield!"

...2 X-Wings escort a Transport

...Star Destroyer bears down on Hoth "Good, our first catch of the day!"

..."Standby Ion Control.......... FIRE!"

If you don't think that sequence puts you on the edge of your seat, I don't know what to tell you.

  Actually, I liked the 'Joan of Arc 14 year old girl leading the assault on the castle.' I didn't think the acting was that important (N.P. became quite a good actress by ROTS.) That and the sabre duel were the two brighter spots in TPM. The big problem was pre-battle. Stiff mattered there, and her only military advisor was...JAR-JAR??!... WTF??! A big problem is costume. At least Padame wore something from a very different time and place. Leia looks just precisely like she's going to snap on her ski's and head for the chairlift.

As a leader of the Rebel Alliance, Leia would be well briefed on military matters. She's more than qualified to deliver a briefing and may have done so to provide more motivation for the troops. Did Eisenhower need to go visit troops before D-Day? No, but I bet you the troops who saw him before they went to Normandy never forgot it.

Who of us would not fight for that Princess?

Oh, and unlike the ridiculous costumes that Padme wore, Leia's costumes actually made sense in Empire Strikes Back. They were realistic, functional and she looked DAMN HOT in them!

  But this storm I've managed to kick up (I like it. Pissed off makes better points :-) has got me thinking. Compromise?  Would the 21 year old snowbunny tellin' the 55 year old General the business in "Two transports...", together with taking over the C.C. after it's hit, be enough to satisfy the 'Joan of Arc' thing?

   I might be able to handle that, but the 'Hanger Briefing' is a hopeless mess for several other reasons I could mention. To that I say "NI', NI',NI'!"    

Hopeless mess? Only to you.

Compromise? Are you kidding?

Your suggestions sound like something Lucas and his sychophants would do and we don't serve their kind here!

"Darth Vader... tall and threatening in his black helmet, flowing black cape, and a face, forever masked, by a foreboding metal breath screen...

Darth Vader... a figure, who moves forever in a cloud of awesome evil!"

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Bingowings said:

Yeah Nat Portman could/can act but she didn't much in TPM or in the PT in general (that's pretty much down to Lucas only Ian manages anything like a performance in that film and that's in a cast with seasoned actors with stage experience).

Leia is wearing those clothes for the same reason the other Rebels in the command centre are...it's freezing cold, what should she be wearing exactly?

She wore a nightie in ANH because she was captured while doing her Senatorial princess undercover work and it was warm on Yavin, She wore a bounty hunter disguise in ROTJ to get into the palace and a metal bikini because Jabba is a fat pervy slug. She spent the rest of the film in combat gear (the only weird dress choice in that one was the Ewok's little Earth goddess number...Ewoks eat the men, worship the droids and dress up the girls). The Bespin Dinner outfit was a strange choice for evening wear but at least she got out of the frozen weather outfit. On the whole Leia's clothing makes perfect sense.

A lot more sense than dressing Jedi in Moisture Farmer outfits which restrict movement and going to the trouble of putting on forest camo and then dragging along a gold reflective fussy protocol droid (even if he did turn out to useful).

     Alright, last comments and then I've got one that might be closer to the group's speed.

  I would have left Leia exactly as she was at the end of ANH. A princess, and important dignitary, a Damsel in Distress-Distressing Damsel who obviously has had some small arms and defense training. That way, ROTJ  would have made sense. Leia sat by Han because a superior civilian dignitary was doing the introduction and she wasn't a flag officer. I'm all for getting the perfect tilt to Vader's hologram. Anything that can be made perfect-should be. How about perfect continuity in the OT as a whole?

  The only real question isn't whether we like or dislike a scene. It's whether replacing that scene or element with something else will produce a better overall pace, tension level, continuity etc... If someone shows me that it doesn't do that, I will be the first to shout NO!

   Alright, how 'bout this?

   Luke takes down General Veer's AT-AT a split second before he pulls the trigger. We get a glimpse of the head turret interior just begining to erupt in spark and flame and shakes. Cut to head exploding. Luke buys a couple of extra precious minutes for the rebels. Another AT-AT blows the generator?    

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thejediknighthusezni said:

I would have left Leia exactly as she was at the end of ANH. A princess, and important dignitary, a Damsel in Distress-Distressing Damsel who obviously has had some small arms and defense training.

I am convinced you must've been George Lucas' private story editor on the PT.

That way, ROTJ  would have made sense. Leia sat by Han because a superior civilian dignitary was doing the introduction and she wasn't a flag officer. I'm all for getting the perfect tilt to Vader's hologram. Anything that can be made perfect-should be. How about perfect continuity in the OT as a whole?

ESB is perfect, ROTJ is not. ROTJ should be made to fit better with ESB, not the other way around.

  The only real question isn't whether we like or dislike a scene. It's whether replacing that scene or element with something else will produce a better overall pace, tension level, continuity etc... If someone shows me that it doesn't do that, I will be the first to shout NO!

Just about every alteration you've suggested would destroy the editing and pace that makes ESB the cinematic masterpiece that it is. You point out problems that don't exist, to which the collective rest of us say "huh?"

Alright, last comments and then I've got one that might be closer to the group's speed.

Alright, how 'bout this?

   Luke takes down General Veer's AT-AT a split second before he pulls the trigger. We get a glimpse of the head turret interior just begining to erupt in spark and flame and shakes. Cut to head exploding. Luke buys a couple of extra precious minutes for the rebels. Another AT-AT blows the generator?    

Dude... not even close

"Darth Vader... tall and threatening in his black helmet, flowing black cape, and a face, forever masked, by a foreboding metal breath screen...

Darth Vader... a figure, who moves forever in a cloud of awesome evil!"