Star Wars 1977 70mm sound mix recreation [stereo and 5.1 versions now available] (Released) — Page 5

Here's what I keep getting when I try to extract the RARs for the 5.1 version (there are only meant to be two parts, yes?) with UnRarX on Mac OS X:

Extracting from /Users/****/Desktop/hairy_hen_70mm_5.1upmix_b_448kbps.part1.rar

Extracting  /Users/****/Desktop/hairy_hen_70mm_5.1upmix_b_448kbps.ac3    
hairy_hen_70mm_5.1upmix_b_448kbps.ac3 - CRC failed
Unexpected end of archive

Extracting from /Users/****/Desktop/hairy_hen_70mm_5.1upmix_b_448kbps.part2.rar

Unexpected end of archive
Total errors: 3

I've tried redownloading both parts and just get the same thing.  Any help would be appreciated!

Try a program called MacPAR deLuxe.  Its primary function is to create par2 files, though I haven't yet made use of that function.  I mainly use it to extract from RAR files on my Mac, and it has never let me down.  Make sure you get the right version for your system: the newest is for Snow Leopard only, but there is one for Tiger and Leopard and another for Panther 10.3.9.

The 5.1 was RAR'd by Satanika and they should both be a little under 200 mb.  The extracted file is 388.1 mb (406,970,368 bytes).

Part 1: 204,469,696 bytes
Part 2: 202,495,880 bytes

Yeah, something's up, they're both too small.  Is there any way to fix this?

Note that I don't have full Internet access yet (fuck you, Comcast) - I've been tethering my Verizon 3G through my Droid Eris to my computer via USB.  I haven't had a problem with most downloads, but I'm not able to access certain websites properly, and I did have a problem with Adywan's latest ESB:R clip (QuickTime and VLC both claimed it wasn't a movie file).

I'll try re-downloading next time I'm at my friend's place so I can steal his WiFi.

I'm glad you enjoyed it!  And that the edits appeared to be seamless.  Out of curiosity, did you play the stereo version or the 5.1?

For Empire and Jedi, they'll be available as a bonus, if you will, to go along with this version.  They won't be the 70mm mixes, but they will be 5.1 and have similar dynamics, sound quality, and LFE support.  I just got what I needed to get to work on Empire, and Jedi is already done.  Look for all three on dark_jedi's upcoming G-Force based encodes.  ;)

Just got the first part - 204,472,320 bytes as Darth Mallwalker said.  Downloading Part 2 now ... we'll see how this goes ...

--edit--

Brilliant!  It worked this time!  Now to synch it up and check it out...

--edit2--

Well, I haven't had a chance to check this out on a 5.1 system (everyone else is asleep), but I did get to listen to a bit of it on my Sennheiser mixing headphones ... and holy shit does this sound amazing!  I can't wait to check it out in surround tomorrow!

--edit3--

And I just got to sample it in surround.

Holy hell you've done a fantastic job, sir!  As much as I love having the original mono and stereo mixes, they don't quite cut it when you're watching it with a high-end 5.1 system that you just know can give it more "oomph."  Now,  you've given us that "oomph!"

I only got to sample certain scenes, so I didn't get to watch it in its entirety, but here's what I can say for certain.  The opening fly-over is pitch-perfect - plenty of bass, but not so much that it'll shatter your windows.  Every section I sampled has a nice surround ambience to it - this isn't a mix that'll have effects coming at you from behind, but it certainly helps to put you in the space with the characters.

And the Battle of Yavin and the destruction of the Death Star sounds simply superb.  Again, there's just the right amount of bass coming from the subwoofer, and it helps give the battle some much-needed "weight."

All in all, if we never get a true copy of the 70mm six-track, I won't really care.  In fact, I'm pretty sure if we did, I'd be underwhelmed after listening to this.

Highly recommended!

I was about to ask if you were able to get the whole thing downloaded--didn't see that you had edited the post until just now.  And . . . my day is now made.  :)  I'm really glad you liked it so much!

The level of surround is quite satisfying to me also--it isn't like The Incredibles or Batman Begins or an equally well made discrete 5.1 of that sort, but the Prologic II generation of upmixers really do a great job with matrix-encoded Dolby Surround tracks.  The mono surround effects speak up when called for, and the rear stereo ambience gives a wider and more immersive sense of space than listening in two channels.  (That's not to knock two channel, of course, because I've heard some truly impressive imaging from hifi stereo speakers, but my own system doesn't reach that level of excellence.)  Jim Fosgate described it best when he said that the ambience is of a sort that you don't always necessarily even notice until it's turned off, at which point you really miss it.

I'm really glad to hear that the LFE levels are just right.  I wrestled with them for quite a while, trying to bring them to a point where everything sounded as powerful as it should, but without being overwhelming.  The levels in the SE mixes were all over the place--sometimes there was absurdly loud bass in places that didn't warrant it at all, and at other times inexplicably subdued where it should have been much stronger.  The Star Destroyer was at such a low level I could barely hear it; I think even the '93 stereo had more bass than that!  But all I really had to go on was an interview with Mike Minkler where he described the mixers' desire to achieve a "thunderous low end" for the passby, causing Steve Katz to invent the idea of separate LFE channels; and the recollections of those who had seen the film in 70mm and had the memory of the scene imprinted on their minds.  Exactly what would have been considered 'thunderous' in 1977, when such bass effects hadn't been done before, wasn't exactly clear--it most likely wouldn't have been quite as strong as the sort of bass that frequently appears in films now, but what's in the SE versions couldn't possibly have been what they intended back then.  I'm still sort of afraid that hearing the 70mm mix would show that my best judgement of what sounded good wasn't an accurate reproduction of the real thing, but I really am happy with the way this version turned out.

SilverWook said:

My main memory of seeing Empire in 70mm was being amazed that noises on Dagobah were coming from behind me! But I recall feeling things like the first snowspeeder flyover as much as hearing them.

 Funny! Reading about all Hairy Hen and D_J's efforts these days keep on remind me the only time I witnessed an incredible relief in a theater in 1987 or 88 (I remember it was THX-certified) watching Robocop. The music really sounded as separated from the movie, and all the sounds were outstanding... You could hear the tiniest ones with much relief, and all that happened in your back was very surprising.

Looks like this kind of technology is now reserved for those who want to put money in those equipments for the living rooms nowadays. And even though...

msycamore said:

ABC, Robocop was indeed one of the first if not the first film with the then new Dolby Stereo Spectral Recording maybe that's one of the reasons why you were impressed, I believe the latest R1 DVD include the original 4.0 mix but maybe you saw a french dub when I think about it.

 Not in french, no. That was my 1st initiation to original versions.

Nowadays, no cinema here sounds that way anymore. A pity !

Continuing a discussion with Dunedain about the 70mm mix that began in dark_jedi's thread:

hairy_hen: Thanks for the info. :) Since the 93 Definitive Collection laserdisk soundtrack was derived from the real theatrical 70mm soundtrack, plus a few additional effects added, it makes sense to go to a previous theatrical stereo soundtrack (since there's currently no way to access the 70mm soundtrack) and replace those few spots where there were added sounds. And so 70mm "stereo soundtrack" is a good descriptive name for it, since that's what it is, the theatrical 70mm soundtrack down-mixed into stereo form by Lucasfilm for laserdisk.

What is the source for the 35mm stereo soundtrack, a laserdisk set released before the Definitive Collection came out?

The 35mm stereo mix was a high quality analog capture from a laserdisc release from the early 80's, I don't know which exact issue it was (Darth Mallwalker would probably know).  If I remember correctly it was the only laserdisc containing that mix that was not time-compressed.  Certain parts were replaced from the similar 1985 version when the sound quality suffered and when there were missing frames and so forth.  All the work on that was done by Belbucus a few years ago, and he was also responsible for giving us the 1993 Definitive Collection mixes and the mono mix restoration. Without his fantastic contributions to this forum, none of what I did would have been possible.

Note that the fidelity and dynamic range of the 35mm version do not equal that of the DC, and also that the stereo image is noticeably narrower.  Because of these discrepancies (particularly the imaging), there are some places where a completely seamless blend of the two sources could not be achieved, at least not with the level of skill I possess.  No doubt someone like Belbucus could improve upon it, but it's only a problem if you listen really closely.

In regards to the 1997 SE 5.1 laserdisk soundtrack. One would think that Lucasfilm would have made a more direct transfer of the 70mm theatrical soundtrack this time, since they had 5.1 channels to work with, instead of only 2 in the Definitive Collection. And other than alterations made specifically for the SE, the SE soundtrack should be very close to the 70mm theatrical soundtrack. And since it has discrete channels for all this, it should make for a very nice DD 5.1 soundtrack on DVD. So why not use the 1997 SE as the main source for a recreation of the original 70mm theatrical soundtrack and just replace portions of it with either the 93 DC soundtrack or the 35mm stereo soundtrack where needed to get rid of the 93 DC and 1997 SE soundtrack changes?

There was a time when I would have agreed that the 1997 SE mix would have made a great source for a 5.1 version of the original film.  Having heard it now, though, I've completely changed my mind about that--despite its use of discrete channels, the '97 version bears very little resemblance to the 70mm mix whatsoever, even in the parts where there are no added sound effects.  Level-matching the '97 and '93 versions to each other, it is immediately apparent that most of the time the dynamic range of the SE mix is at least 3 db lower.  In other words, with the average volume of the two coming out the same, the '93 consistently displays significantly higher peak volumes, giving it a much more powerful sound.  The EQ is entirely different also, with the SE putting more emphasis on the high frequencies.  Not necessarily a bad thing, though to my ear it makes it sound tinny in comparison to the more robust '93 version.  Perhaps relating to this EQ, every time C-3PO speaks, there is a huge amount of high frequency noise in the '97 mix--you can hear the noise in earlier versions, but nowhere near that level.  (This may have been one of the reasons they remixed the sound for the 2004 dvd; but in that case they went way too far in the other direction, completely killing the highs and pumping up the bass in the sound effects, giving the whole film a distorted, muffled, utterly nasty sound.)

From these kinds of differences, and also the fact that the music in the '97 is consistently more prominent throughout the film than it is in the '93 (I do like that aspect of it), it is quite plain that the SE 5.1 mix was made over again and not derived from the 70mm version at all.  On top of all that, there's the issue of the 70mm having a mono surround channel (reasonably well represented when upmixing the '93) and not the split surrounds featured in the special edition.  On several occasions the surround effects of the SE become far too loud in relation to the rest of the sound, calling undue attention to themselves; the 70mm by contrast is perfectly balanced in this respect.

Is the .1 LFE channel in the 1997 SE laserdisk set pretty close to what the bass channels in the 70mm theatrical soundtrack sounded like, based on available accounts, did you have to change it much to be more accurate to the 70mm theatrical version?

The LFE channel ended up being the one useable aspect--indeed the special editions are the only home video releases featuring 5.1 mixes, so the bass had to come from there.  I mentioned this a few posts up on the page, but I had to do a lot of tweaking to get it to a point of sounding like it actually belonged in the film as opposed to being clumsily pasted on top.  Several instances of needlessly loud bass in scenes that didn't warrant their inclusion had to be toned down or removed altogether.  Sometimes these overly loud booms came from added CGI shots, in which case even more trickery was sometimes required to integrate them, because the accompanying visuals and main channel sound effects were completely different.  Strangely, the iconic Star Destroyer flyby in the beginning did not remotely live up to the "thunderous low end" desired by the original mixers, requiring an enormous boost in volume to sound as powerful as it should.

Mostly I used the 1997 mix for the bass, since for all its defects it still recognisably sounds like Star Wars, and most of the time provided the best match.  There were times when I felt the 2004 LFE actually sounded a bit better, so occasionally those were used instead; and a few times neither SE version sounded right, so I ended up deriving the LFE from the existing bass in the 1993 mix.  In those cases I had to correct for unwanted phase cancellation with the main channels.  Quite a bit of work, really, but worth it, because the resulting 5.1 mix is really awesome.  The bass in particular ends up being kind of a 'best guess' on my part--I made it sound the way I think it should, taking into account everything I could find out about the original, and all my observations about the various mixes that have been done over the years.

The links to both the stereo and 5.1 versions are on the first page of the thread.  Empire and Jedi are upcoming--not 70mm recreations exactly, because the specifics of those aren't very well known, but they should be of a similar caliber in the overall sound.

Hope that answered all your questions, Dunedain.  ;)

So you are re doing Empire and Jedi now? I thought it was only Empire.

Nah, I just meant I was going to see about having the existing Jedi file re-uploaded at the same time I finished with Empire.  I should be done with that pretty soon I hope--got a bit distracted by unrelated things, but there's not much to do so I don't expect it will take very long to finish.

IIRC, the Jedi 5.1 upmix that Hairy_Hen made is just the 1993 PCM upmixed to 5.1 with the music that was originally cut from the Ben/Luke conversation restored.  It's available on Dark_Jedi's previous GOUT restoration releases.

As such, it's not a 70mm restoration so much as it is an alternate 5.1 track with one scene of restored music not present in any other version.

I do have one question for you, Hairy_Hen - did you use the 1997 SE for the LFE channel in this the same way you did for the 70mm ANH recreation?  Or did you just use the information present in the 1993 track to create the LFE?

Exactly right.  The other two films are not 70mm versions (since there are no in-theatre recordings to compare to) but are a bit more customised.  Relatively minor issues, and the vast majority of both soundtracks is still the DC mixes.

The LFE channels of both ESB and RotJ come from the 2004 dvd's.  Unlike Star Wars, the '04 mixes of these are for the most part exactly the same as the '97 versions--specific alterations to sound effects and dialogue appear here and there, but evidently they did not feel the need to do any other remixing aside from those instances.  I don't think there were any changes to the LFE in either one, and the 448 kbps bitrate of the dvd's as opposed to 384 on the laserdiscs should offer some measure of increase in fidelity, though it's hard to say how noticeable that actually is.  It is worth noting that both of them have stronger bass than Star Wars in several places.  I haven't been able to find much in the way of specific references to their original LFE content and how that might differ from the SE's, so I just went with what sounds right.  A lot of the time that meant no change at all, with relatively few instances of level adjustment being required.

Were you able to totally eliminate those phase cancellation issues that you mentioned? Were you able to remove the added-in LFE related to the CGI stuff added to the SE video (that is obviously not present in the GOUT video being used) and still keep it seamless (by maybe using bass from the 93 DC to make the sounds and SPL levels correct for those parts of those scenes)?

The cancellation is entirely corrected.  I'm not sure exactly what caused it, but I think the upmix must have inverted the phase of some parts of the main channels, so it was partially cancelling itself out when combined with its duplication in the LFE.  By inverting the LFE portion in those instances, it nows adds together the way it should, so what you hear is exactly what's in the '93 mix except more so.

Sometimes when there were CGI inserts with associated LFE content, I simply deleted them; the main channels of the original mix in those instances often didn't need bass reinforcement anyway.  Other times I kept them in but at a reduced level, or substituted a modified version of a bass effect from elsewhere in the movie.  Also, since the LFE of the '97 and '04 versions often differed from each other, I could pick and choose which was a better match in each case.

The most most obviously different were the Alderaan and Death Star explosions, since the strongest bass came from the added shockwaves.  By splitting the Alderaan apart and crossfading it back together at different levels, I was able to give stronger bass to the beginning of the explosion while reducing the altered section; while for the Death Star I ended up just increasing the start and then fading out before the part associated with the CGI.  There really wasn't much to be drawn from the '93 mix in either instance, because the main channel dynamics were given priority in that version, and its headroom would have been reduced had they included more than a small amount.

lol  :p

I'm just a guy with a good audio memory and a keen interest in this sort of thing.  Haven't had any formal training in sound aside from taking music theory classes and doing some basic composing.  People keep telling me I should study sound production, so I guess I should stop being a lazy fool and get going with that.  ;)