hairy_hen said:
Does it strike anyone else as odd that so many lines apparently existed in the first cut of the film but were then taken out for the 35mm version? If you look at Star Wars, all the dialogue differences in the mono version were recorded later, but in the case of Empire, we seem to be expected to believe that a "more complete" auditory experience existed first, and was then cut down for the later wide release. Combine that with differences in the SE not being authentic, and something just isn't adding up at all. Hence my scepticism about the whole thing . . .
It strikes me as a little odd, but not out of the realm of possibility. Many of the changes in the 35mm version seem to add clarity or change the tone of the dialog.
What do you mean by "differences in the SE not being authentic"?
hairy_hen said:
Having now heard the soundtrack, I can weigh in with my opinion. While the differences were very interesting, I still find myself disagreeing with the notion that they accurately represent the 70mm version. They probably did derive the image from the 70mm sources, going by the pics of the Emperor being already tuned in and the missing radar dish, but I can tell you right now that the audio track on this 8mm recording is definitely its own separate mix. It is not simply transferred from the 70mm soundtrack!
To me it seems likely that the 8mm was based off the 70mm, dialog and all. While the 8mm of Star Wars was perhaps an afterthought, and therefore based on the last mix (the monaural), the 8mm of Empire was probably planned ahead of time, and was based on the first mix (the 70mm). Just speculation, but it makes sense.
hairy_hen said:
How do I know this? Several reasons--the first of which is that the music is clearly mixed separately from the sound effects and dialogue. There are several instances in which the music is edited and synchronised in ways quite different from how it appears in the film itself. These edits were made specifically to accommodate the shortening of the film from its full length--they are not simply jump cuts from one shot to another, although there are numerous instances of that also. Second, the Film Score Monthly list specifically notes the absence of tracked music from the cue "Yoda and the Force" in the 70mm version for the rebel fleet at the end . . . and the 8mm soundtrack quite obviously does contain this tracked music. Moreover it accommodates the tracked music by shortening the cue Williams actually intended for the scene.
Given the length of the 8mm version, I wouldn't give much weight to the score at all. I defer to your observations, but I'd imagine major edits were required.
hairy_hen said:
It's certainly possible that some of the alternate lines, in the 8mm and/or the SE, originated in the 70mm mix; but given the obvious ways in which the 8mm is uniquely different from the others, there's no reliable way to tell which lines actually came from the 70 and which did not.
Ultimately, you are right. But where would this audio have come from? Were the 8mm transfers prepared by Lucasfilm or the 8mm company? And here's a question for our audio gurus: Were there any changes in the 8mm of Star Wars that were not in the mono mix?
hairy_hen said:
I certainly would not feel comfortable or justified inserting alternate dialogue into the film and calling it authentic--and I would say that even if the fidelity were good enough that such insertion could be done seamlessly. As it is, the sound quality does not permit it to be done without calling attention to itself.
It couldn't be called authentic, maybe "reconstructed" or "best guess". As far as the quality of the alternate audio, I recommend you check out MoveAlong's The Story of the Empire Strikes Back. Several of the alternate audio takes appear in that, and the quality seems to be better.