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Sexism in Action Movies? — Page 2

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Warbler said:

I think the reason for this is simple.   Action movies are made for men, not women.     Since most men aren't gay, they'd rather see women sexualized than men.   Sex sells.

We know that. That is actually the point we are making. We are just making the claim that it is sexist. Kind of funny you are pretty liberal and sensitive on so many other matters, but on this one you defend the status quo.

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I think this is generally pretty obvious...and yes, it is sexist.

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It's funny and a bit refreshing that we (ostensibly a bunch of heterosexual males) are having this conversation at all.  I guess that makes us refined.  =P

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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 (Edited)

1) Did Warbler defend the status quo, or just state it?

2) How can this be undone or remedied? The vast majority of people seem to okay with it - filmmakers, filmgoers, and most importantly the actresses themselves.

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vote_for_palpatine said:

2) How can this be undone or remedied? The vast majority of people seem to okay with it - filmmakers, filmgoers, and most importantly the actresses themselves.


With a fan-editor mentality, I wonder if Blade 3 would have gotten one better review, made less more dollar, or sold one less DVD if the 90 second "Jessica Biel in the shower" sequence wasn't in it. I doubt it.

I like Biel. She has an ass that don't quit. But that shower sequence just made me feel dirty, and perhaps a bit bored. IMHO it added nothing to the film and wouldn't have been missed. In a film as mediocre as Blade 3, that's saying something.

On the other hand, Catherine Zeta-Jone's ass in "Entrapment" when it went under the lazer was the only thing that movie had going for it.

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Gaffer Tape said:

It gets even creepier.  Back in 2007 when Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix came out, WB tried to do the same thing to Emma Watson in its poster (and she was, like, 16 at the time).  People did notice, cried child sexualization, and Watson's, um, artificial enhancements were removed.

 

Really?!?!?

EEEEwwwww!!!

On a related note, I watched TPM the other day and had a creepy realization. I was 17 when it came out, and I had a man thing for Natalie Padme.

Now I'm 29, and she's what, 14 in that movie (?), and just remembering having a thing for her made me feel all creepy like I needed to go buy a white van.

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Octorox said:

I think this is generally pretty obvious...and yes, it is sexist.

There is nothing sexier than being obvious.

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Bingowings said:

I think the nearest thing to Willis in Die Hard 4, Ford in Indy IV etc was Ripley 8 in Alien 4.

I think you're right, age can count for a lot.

Willis, Segal, Stallone, Chan, and Ford are all in their 70s, and you can buy them as asskickers.

If a woman looks over 32 she can only be a grieving mother or an evil social climber.

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None of them are seventy:

Ford (b 1942)

Stallone (b 1946)

Seagal (b 1952)

Chan (b 1954)

Willis (b 1955)

And the lion's share of their work as action heroes came when they were in their 30's-40's. The only reason they've gotten work in action flicks in their 50's-60's is because of their body of work from their younger days.

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I think we are seeing more men sexualized in popular movies though. Twilight anyone? It's just a matter of target audience.

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And TheBoost, don't feel too bad. NP was sixteen-seventeen when TPM was filmed. Only about a year younger than you, no?

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 (Edited)

C3PX said:

Warbler said:

I think the reason for this is simple.   Action movies are made for men, not women.     Since most men aren't gay, they'd rather see women sexualized than men.   Sex sells.

We know that. That is actually the point we are making. We are just making the claim that it is sexist. Kind of funny you are pretty liberal and sensitive on so many other matters, but on this one you defend the status quo.

 

vote_for_palpatine said:

1) Did Warbler defend the status quo, or just state it?

I thought I was just stating it.   I wasn't trying to defend or attack it, for that matter.  

Sometimes I think the sexualizing of women goes too far(Padme being slashed in Ep 2).   Other times its no big deal to me(the Bond movies).  

Octorox said:

I think we are seeing more men sexualized in popular movies though. Twilight anyone? It's just a matter of target audience.

good point.

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I don't think anyone is saying that sexualization is inherently bad.  The problem is that it is universally done with females.  Which leads into a subsidiary problem:  sexualized females are deemed appropriate in movies marketed towards males and females.  Sexualized males are usually only deemed appropriate in movies marketed towards females.  That seems a bit odd.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Sexism sounds inherently bad.

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Which is why I said "sexualization".  ^_^

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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No, you did - but others are seeing this as more of a problem than you and I do.

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Really?  I certainly do see it as a legitimate problem, and I thought the posts I'd made so far confirmed that.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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 (Edited)

Gaff,

It was my idea that your calling it "sexualization" made it a less severe problem than outright sexism. Was i wrong?

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Gaffer Tape said:

I don't think anyone is saying that sexualization is inherently bad.  The problem is that it is universally done with females.  Which leads into a subsidiary problem:  sexualized females are deemed appropriate in movies marketed towards males and females.  Sexualized males are usually only deemed appropriate in movies marketed towards females.  That seems a bit odd.

I think most action movies are primarily marketed towards males. That being said, one could make the case that movies like Star Trek and Transformers are targeted towards general audiences. Aside from the miniskirt (which was really a nod to TOS) I don't think they really sexualized Uhura more than Kirk though.

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Yeah, but if you consider Uhura's role in other Star Trek media, I found it quite odd how pushed to the forefront she was in this one.  I mean, she was touted as more a major character than Bones!  Not that it's bad to see Uhura actually do something, but I do get the impression (from that and the taking off her top scene) that they wanted a hot woman on the movie poster.

EDIT:  Or maybe I'm looking into that from the wrong angle, and maybe they just wanted a forced love triangle, and, digging into the Smurfette Principle, she's the only girl, so it had to be her.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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(sorry, long rant)

But more to the point, what is the problem exactly? If T&A is cheap, as in Padme's instant half-shirt, that's bad art, a lousy bit of man service. Or if it's a crime-fighting superwoman in high-heeled go-go boots, well, that's more obvious cheap fan service. But this idea that sexuality cheapens art generally is asinine, unless one subscribes to the puritanical idea that sex is a negative impulse.

"Oh, but this sort of thing objectifies women." No, acting objectifies everyone in the profession. Not only do I not know these actors, I have no chance of knowing them. Outside of my life circle, everyone is an object. That's not to say they would remain objects if I somehow got to know them - of course they would not. But all we know of these people beyond their roles is the personae they use on the talk-show circuit. We can, if we choose, learn little additional snippets about these people - who they marry, what their kids' names are, where they grew up - but all we get is an image. Every factoid sharpens the image a little, but it's still an image. It's nothing like knowing someone in the way that we know the people in our everyday lives. If being objectified is a problem, being an actor only makes it worse - for actors of either gender. 

I don't care for anything gratuitous - sex, violence, profanity - you name it. But there is a place for these elements depending on the type of movie it is. And a filmmaker drawing too deeply from the T&A well may be sexist, but he/she may not be. Who can tell? How can one know what's in someone's heart from such scant evidence, especially when there may be pressure from studio bosses to ramp up the hotness? I'm not God. If you're (no one specific, the collective you) comfortable with declaring "Sexism!" here, well, you must have a phenomenally flawless method of reading people and their intentions. And of course, you must have a problem with actresses who choose to participate in this affront to womanhood.

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Octorox said:

I think most action movies are primarily marketed towards males. That being said, one could make the case that movies like Star Trek and Transformers are targeted towards general audiences.

Really?  I haven't seen the new Star Trek yet, but how was Transformers targeted towards a general audience?

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Gaffer Tape said:  Which leads into a subsidiary problem:  sexualized females are deemed appropriate in movies marketed towards males and females.  Sexualized males are usually only deemed appropriate in movies marketed towards females.  That seems a bit odd.

I thought action movies were usually marketed towards men.   Do you think there were many women that went to see The Dark Knight that weren't dragged there by husbands and boyfriends?

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Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a good example of them not sexing up the female lead, yes SMG was/is a very attractive woman but they never made a big deal of that as GW has always had strong female leads in all his projects.

 

and as for toning down a female leads sex appeal they tried that with the naturally blond Gillian Anderson in the X files, that backfired and they made her a total sex symbol to a Very large part of that shows viewership 

Bingowings said: Do you want to see the project finished as a playable film or a flick book?

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I do think there is a degree of male flesh blindness on this thread.

Women (and gay men) like action movies too and some film makers aren't so stupid that they don't notice this.

Men are sexualised in these movies, often as much, if not more than women, especially more so in recent years.

I think you guys just can't see it.

The number of ostensibly heterosexual men who don't realise how campy homoerotic WWE or American Football (Rugby in tights and shoulder pads, clearly that's not remotely gay) is staggering.

The same goes for not noticing male flesh in action movies.

Most male viewers would be thinking that guy must be a strong and fit etc when the straight ladies and the gay guys will be thinking the sort of thing the straight guys and gay girls think when they see a well proportioned lady boob.

The main area in this genre where gender prejudice really kicks in is with age and I think that will eventually change as people become equally ageist towards men and women (the idea of a middle aged man being cast in Doctor Who is almost unthinkable at least to the suits at the BBC now, sadly).