zombie84 said:
Vaderisnothayden said:
So basically anybody who doesn't agree with your relativistic view of art is immature, egomaniacal, idiotic, etc? Nice to know. I won't bother discussing art with you in the future.
I wouldn't bother discussing it with anyone other than other deluded elitists convinced they know better than others just because they don't enjoy certain things. I doubt you could convince any reasonable person that their taste in things is somehow "incorrect." "Sorry, sir, you may think that Star Wars is a good movie, but actually it's not. Trust me, I've thought about it a long time." At best, people will say they simply don't agree, and at worst you will offend them. "I'm sorry you don't agree. You're still wrong, however."
An absolutist view of any art, whether fashion, comics, cinema, or music, is pure lunacy. I don't know how any person can honestly convince themselves that this has any logical value. In order to do so you would have to believe that you are "correct" about certain opinions and others "incorrect", which is pretty self-absorbed. It also shows how people have absolutely no grasp of cultural and art history, otherwise the only explanation of why films from certain periods have similar characteristics and why people liked certain things during certain periods is "well, they're not as sophisticated as us now", while exempting the present moment from the same analysis. Except for the vintage material that you like yourself, of course, that stuff is "truely" good, not just illusionarily good because of herd-mentality. Because everyone is wrong except for you, right now.
Blah blah blah. In case you hadn't caught on, I stopped debating with you two pages back. I thought I made it clear enough, too. To have any chance of reaching somebody with views as far out as yours would take too much effort and I'm not going to bother (all the more so seeing as you can't stop being insulting). I don't get paid for posting, you know. But you stubbornly refused to recognize that I'd stopped debating with you and so you hijacked my discussion with Warbler to find material to use as an excuse to insult me further. What I find interesting is that you can't accept me as a valid human being. Once I'd indicated I had views at odds with your prized relativistic doctrine of art, out came a stream of abuse. According to you I'm an idiot, immature and an egomaniac, etc. All because I don't share your views. This incapability to accept as valid a person who disagrees with you is a nasty trait and one that I think indicates you have serious issues.
That said, you've got me back into debating with you a bit just to clear some things up. Congratulate yourself.
In order to do so you would have to believe that you are "correct" about certain opinions and others "incorrect", which is pretty self-absorbed.
Which is what you are doing now, with your "Vaderisnothayden's view is incorrect and zombie84's view is correct and any view of art the disagrees with zombie's is that of "deluded elitists convinced they know better than others just because they don't enjoy certain things"". People regularly feel their views are correct and opposing ones are incorrect. If they didn't they couldn't believe in their opinions. Get used to it.
It also shows how people have absolutely no grasp of cultural and art history, otherwise the only explanation of why films from certain periods have similar characteristics and why people liked certain things during certain periods is "well, they're not as sophisticated as us now", while exempting the present moment from the same analysis.
Again you attribute to me views I do not hold and assume I'm arguing things I'm not arguing.
zombie84 said:
If only he had written a manifesto we could have rendered the entire critic industry obsolete. There is only ONE truth!!!!! Watch out, RLM....
Well you seem to think the critic industry is pointless anyway. There is only The One Truth of Zombie84 and the critics are all "deluded elitists" or whatever.
Because everyone is wrong except for you, right now.
Actually, what you're arguing is that everybody is wrong except for zombie84. Everybody who thinks any work of art is better or worse and that it's not all subjective (which includes most critics and academics dealing with the arts, plus a whole host of other people) -all those people- are wrong and zombie84 is right, and because of that they're probably all "deluded elitists" and immature idiot egomaniacs.
All I've done is dared to have my own view, dared to have confidence in my own view, dared to hold to my view when an individual or individuals have told me my view is wrong, and dared to hold to to my view despite the fact that the majority among a certain group disagree with me (the last re Wrath of Khan in particular). For this crime you call me an idiot, an egomaniac and immature. From that I deduce that you must be very much a the-individual-must-submit-to-the-majority/independent-thought-is-bad type of person. I'm not. I believe strongly in the right of the indivudual to think for themselves and go their own way.
You have succeeded in opening my eyes about you. In the past I have noted to myself some faults in the thinking in The Secret History of Star Wars, such a tendency to overly quickly dismiss opposing evidence and to build theories on insufficient evidence, but I kept quiet about it, because the book is a great store of Star Wars info despite those problems. But now I am adding together the aggressive narrow-mindedness of your reaction to my views with the extreme nature of the views you state here and adding in the problems with the thinking in your book, and the picture that emerges from all that is... interesting.
But I am done debating with you. I will try to avoid having any discussions with you in the future, because this has not been a pleasant experience. You turned a civilized discussion into a row, for which I don't thank you. Perhaps you should learn not to get spontaneously insulting with people you are having a discussion with. It would be a mark of maturity. Have a nice day.