I was looking at the TPM puppet Yoda and if you tweak the ears to match other Yoda models, the puppet isn't that bad. He looks like a young Yoda. But yeah, what is a decade for something that is 800 years old.
Ghost said:
I was looking at the TPM puppet Yoda and if you tweak the ears to match other Yoda models, the puppet isn't that bad. He looks like a young Yoda. But yeah, what is a decade for something that is 800 years old.
TPM Yoda - sorry - "Canadian Yoda" seems to have a completely different skull shape than all the other Yodas, CG or puppet. Looking at them side by side, I like the CGI Yoda even more, as it looks like a plumper version of the puppet.
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I love the way that Lucas up until very recently was saying something along the lines of "We tried to give them a better Yoda and they didn't like that" and that the CGI Yoda was purely down to him leaping about like a nutter in the next two prequels.
I can't get the suspicion out of my head that the TPM puppet was deliberately made rubbish to get the CGI Yoda through without protest.
If the puppet had been perfect there would be no way they would be able to pull off the Yoda State Circus moves that George had in mind.
Bingowings said:
I love the way that Lucas up until very recently was saying something along the lines of "We tried to give them a better Yoda and they didn't like that" and that the CGI Yoda was purely down to him leaping about like a nutter in the next two prequels.
I can't get the suspicion out of my head that the TPM puppet was deliberately made rubbish to get the CGI Yoda through without protest.
If the puppet had been perfect there would be no way they would be able to pull off the Yoda State Circus moves that George had in mind.
Only if Lucas can plan and think ahead.... But the prequels prove that he can't.
See this (short) review and make yout conclusions ;)
-Angel
vaderios said:
See this (short) review and make yout conclusions ;)
http://www.slashfilm.com/2009/12/17/watch-this-70-minute-video-review-of-star-wars-the-phantom-menace/
He does bring up some very good points and critisisms... but I get very tired on his need to belittle and insult people that happen to like EP1 - yes, it's certainly is a "flawed as sh*t" movie , but it's definitely not the worse film of the SW series.
Plus, his attempts at "dark" humor are worse than Carlos Mencia's standup act. -_-
JasonN said:
vaderios said:
See this (short) review and make yout conclusions ;)
http://www.slashfilm.com/2009/12/17/watch-this-70-minute-video-review-of-star-wars-the-phantom-menace/
He does bring up some very good points and critisisms... but I get very tired on his need to belittle and insult people that happen to like EP1 - yes, it's certainly is a "flawed as sh*t" movie , but it's definitely not the worse film of the SW series.
Plus, his attempts at "dark" humor are worse than Carlos Mencia's standup act. -_-
While it is utterly pointless to belittle people who like anything, this review does serve as a good guide to the sort of thing that needs sorting out and as for it not being the worst film in the series I'm not sure what criteria you can judge that contest.
It's like picking you best friend or your worst enemy.
There is so much so wrong with episodes I, II, III and VI and that the only thing you can hold between them is what does work.
ROTJ still has the original cast and while Ian is fun it's possibly his worst performance until he puts the Halloween mask in ROTS. It has an arrow of intent to follow. It's flawed but it's very fixable.
ROTS has the much of the same problems as the rest of PT but Hayden and Ewen to actually come across as friends in the first act, even though the plot often makes no sense it feels more like Star Wars most of the time than the other two.
AOTC has almost all the same problems as TPM plus the introduction of the worst written and acted romance and the most pointless mystery investigation ever written. But it has a couple of action sequences that are actually well paced and the ground battle is somewhat evocative of that Star Wars thing in the title.
However TPM had the longest prep time of any Star Wars film, it was and will possibly from now on be the most anticipated film ever made with a high degree of good will directed at the series (even if ROTJ was nowhere near as perfect as a large share of fans remember it to be) While any film would have an uphill struggle to live up to that sort of anticipation (an excuse often quoted to let it off the hook) it was so insubstantial and made so little sense and lacked almost any redeeming feature that it poisoned the well of good will directed at the series and set up what was to not work for almost anything with Star Wars in the title that followed it.
Many people are forgiving of the jarring flaws in the other three not so good Star Wars films because TPM was so awful.
Imagine if TPM was a really good film and then AOTC and ROTS had come out as seen.
Many of the things people let those films get away with would be thrown into sharp focus. After the release of TPM, ROTJ would be re-appraised as being nowhere near as good as the other three.
It was the wrecking ball of the saga.
On the plus side it offers the greatest opportunity for fan editors to test their imagination (which is why so many editors give it a go).
Never has a film so needed to be loved been so derided by so many.
It took Star Wars from being a cool world for the whole family to enjoy even further into a toy catalogue for kids and nerdish collectors than Jedi ever did.
Someone should go through this review (and a few like it) cut out the wonderfully sick jokes and isolate the key points.
Then go through all the ideas here and elsewhere which address those points and see if they can be improved on and see if any of those points have never been addressed and work on those too.
As I said way back when this thread began most edits just nibble around the edges of the problems with the prequels.
There is so much wrong with them on so many levels that boldness is the only way to save them and the saga as a whole.
I'm going to start out saying that this "review" was incredibly done. A couple of jokes were over the top, but this guy did have me laughing.
This review makes TPM look helpless, I thought this film had a little hope, but now that window is almost nothing. So many huge errors were pointed out that can't be fixed.
Who is the main character? This was one of the major points brought up and I don't know if this can even be solved.
There were alot of stupid things in the movie that now that I look at them, its like...wow.
Adywan is good...sorry great, but I don't know how far he can go into saving this movie. He can make Coruscant look pretty, but he can't change important things like acting and storyline.
Looking at this review, I hope TPM gets a totall overhaul. The plot needs to be simplyfied, stupid scenes need to be taken out, and very extensive editing will need to be done.
We got another 3-5 years to get this movie to where it could and should be, we can do it.
Bingowings said:
There is so much so wrong with episodes I, II, III and IV and that the only thing you can hold between them is what does work.
Episode IV? Isn't that supposed to be the original Star Wars?
;P
If anything, that analysis depressed me. If the film fails at such a fundamental level of story and characters then how can it be fixed?
If anything, that analysis depressed me. If the film fails at such a fundamental level of story and characters then how can it be fixed?
Same here. This film may be so bad that there will only be limited things editors like Ady can do.
The main thing that will need to be fixed is the overall childish feel to the movie. I was even wondering if it would be possible to take Jar-Jar out of the film after they go underwater. After that he isn't needed at all.
If anything after watching the basics of how a movie should be made, ROTS actually has alot of promise. It has a good plot to work off of. It has the best acting of the PT, and it has a main character.
Most of the everything can be made better in ROTS. Like in the review he said something about how the duel between Vader and Obi-Wan has alot of emotion, but it is way too long. I totally agree there.
I can't believe how stupid TPM looks now.
Ghost said:
If anything after watching the basics of how a movie should be made, ROTS actually has alot of promise. It has a good plot to work off of. It has the best acting of the PT, and it has a main character.
Who is also one of the most poorly conceived, terribly written, and flawedly-executed protagonists ever put down to film...
(on a serious note, who really give a sh*t whether or not a story has a main or central character? Not all narratives need to have a primary protagonist to fill in as the audience's surrogate in order to be good)
True. JasonN.
We should find some good examples of movies were this technique is done and work off of it. Cause we can't magically create a main character with existing footage.
Can you think of any good movies off the top of your head with no main character?
JasonN said:
Bingowings said:
There is so much so wrong with episodes I, II, III and IV and that the only thing you can hold between them is what does work.
Episode IV? Isn't that supposed to be the original Star Wars?
;P
Whoops! Thanks for flagging up the gaff! I'm happy sit corrected.
To those who found it depressing, think of it this way if it was easy to fix it wouldn't be anywhere near as open to our imaginations to play in.
There were some interesting edit options that I've never seen before in the review itself.
Like having them cut the door open before the droids turn up, having the ship blow up after they have escaped (making them have to rethink their plans).
My linear edit approach would explain why they took a kid to a warzone.
Making the Queen the central character could give the story an arc.
She wants to liberate her planet but is frustrated at every turn by the inaction of the bureaucratic nightmare the Republic has become and takes matters into her own hands.
Having the dispute about a rival claim to the planet rather than a Trade dispute gives the conflict a more upfront reason for happening and puts the native Gungans into a stronger position (the Naboo and the Neimiodians are duking it out over a planet that doesn't legitimately belong to either of them).
Once you start thinking of ways to fix the first part it automatically fixes a lot of what's wrong with the prequel trilogy as a whole.
So think positive, see it as a worthy challenge and start the new year firing up that imagination.
A bad trilogy could be the greatest gift Lucas ever gave us because it really pushes us to the limit to try and fix it.
I also like the idea of Qui-Gon being the true phantom menace.
A point could be made about the ends never justifying the means and that bending the rules has sometimes dire outcomes.
Ghost said:
Can you think of any good movies off the top of your head with no main character?
Off the top of my head:
- Seven Samurai
- the first 2/3rds of Alien (until Ripley was the only one left)
- Pulp Fiction
- Terminator 2 was always a bit questionable for me (although I suppose you could argue that John was central to the story, I never really saw him as the main/central character)
- Dawn of the Dead (the original 1978 film - not the 2004 remake)
Ghost said:
Can you think of any good movies off the top of your head with no main character?
Uhmm... "Snatch.", "Watchmen", "Inglorious Basterds", "Sin City". That's just from top of my head.
TPM is the only movie in the Star Wars Saga without a main character. Also, if we watch it in Lucas' intended order, this is supposed to be the introduction to the galaxy/the force/jedi/etc. and we get no such thing, we are thrown into the middle of negotiations that have no negotiating about a dispute no one understands over people dying that no one sees.
The more I think about it, the more I don't think TPM can be saved. Parts of it could be used in flashback, but I don't think we could make TPM a watchable movie.
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doubleofive said:
... but I don't think we could make TPM a watchable movie.
Maybe not great... but I think it IS possible to make it WATCHABLE.
Besides, imagine how much better the whole thing would look like visually if made closer to the OT. Ray-Shields for example:
* http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2009/172/9/d/SW1___TPM_Droids_Jedi_Naboo_by_SWRemixed.jpg
* http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/174/d/d/SW3___ROTS_Recolor_01_by_SWRemixed.jpg
I don't know about you, but I'd love to see TPM remade (visually) into something that would resemble the Original Trilogy.
*Art by Angel. Taken from http://swremixed.deviantart.com
With total restructuring I think it could be made at least as good as ROTJ (the current form), if someone were to throw some serious money into shooting some new scenes I think it could be better still.
First of all we need a character to follow and to be honest the only one who really fits the bill is Padme/Queen Amidala.
Anakin is too young and only comes in half way.
Qui-Gon is too inscrutable, Obi-Wan is too underdeveloped.
The Queen is under heavy make-up most of the time so it might be possible to expand her role by finding someone a bit Portman/Knightly shaped and obscure them in costume and make-up.
The whole film hinges on the Queen liberating her people.
You have her trying to get satisfaction through the Senate and the bureaucrats. You have her trying to take matters into her own hands and having her ship shot down. You have her (in her handmaiden guise) taking an active role in trying to get the ship working again and meeting Anakin. You have her coming up with the final plans to kick the Neimodians of her world.
I had an idea last night that might help too.
One of the criticisms highlighted in the review we must have all watched now was the problem of the four concurrent conflicts being too much too late.
Nute Gunray could stay on his ship until he was convinced of ultimate victory.
The Gungan vs Droids battle could be a ruse (they could deliberately surrender at a key point creating the impression that the crisis is over).
Once the droids have appeared to have won he could land giving the Queen her chance to use her familiarity with the palace to capture him.
This would isolate that battle from the action making it a prelude to a more easy to handle three part ending.
Padme in the palace. Anakin (who has 'borrowed' a fighter and is deliberately in the air using his raw abilities to take on the blockade fleet (not just one ship) and the Jedi on the command ship trying to shut it and the droids and signal for help, only to get caught in a fight with Maul ship's reactor halls.
I've said it so many times but the going back and forth in the current version is a major problem with TPM.
Just as destroying the Death Star was the main aim of ANH removing the invaders from Naboo should be the main focus of TPM.
Do we really need to see Anakin being tested on Coruscant?
Do we really need to see Padme on Naboo at the beginning or have Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in the Gungan City?
Start on Coruscant, get shot down and have to land on Tatooine and then go to Naboo.
And start with a big bang.
Have the Naboo launch most of their fighters at the Blockade and have them shot down and their communication satellites destroyed.
That way the senate could be bogged down with figuring out what to do with no clear information coming out and the Jedi could be concerned enough to send a couple of their own to investigate.
Change the motive of the Trade Federation to reclaiming a planet they had a prior claim on (which explains why the native Gungans don't like the Naboo).
And redub all the silly characters so they have proper roles to play (Jar-Jar the token Gungan representative despised by his own people for mixing with Naboo is much more Star Wars than a clown rabbit with a racially offensive patois).
I'd even redub Jake Lloyd so what he does say comes across a less annoying.
Bingo, another very noble post. I love all these ideas.
First of all we need a character to follow and to be honest the only one who really fits the bill is Padme/Queen Amidala.
She fits that perfectly. That makes too much sense in too many ways. Shes someone who we would route for. If she would be better developed, it creates alot more emotion for the whole saga.
The Gungan vs Droids battle could be a ruse
That would be a very good idea. I never liked that battle and it is distracting to what TPM should be focusing on. That battle does nothing for developing the saga, it was there to show off modern CGI at the time. The whole battle is very childish.
Do we really need to see Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in the Gungan City?
If there is a way around it then I'm all for getting rid of as much stupid Gungan crap as possible. ONLY, if this doesn't take away from the plot.
Start on Coruscant, get shot down and have to land on Tatooine and then go to Naboo.
And start with a big bang.
Starting with a bang is something that needs to be done. No question about it.
Starting on Coruscant would make the queen feel more like the main character. I like where all this is going.
I'd even redub Jake Lloyd so what he does say comes across a less annoying.
I don't think re-dubbing Jake Llyod is necessary. It would be alot more work for not a big difference. I think he needs a new personality. I know where GL was going with his cute, nice personality; he was trying to show how a nice kid turns into Vader. I don't think it works. I'd like to see him be more quiet, like a sneaky little genius.
All of this is going to take alot of time, has anyone been trying to find a new voice for Jar-Jar? We should start now and have it come down to Ady when he comes around to it.
Will this be color corrected first, or will Ady do it last?
Trimming what he says can only go so far.
Jake Lloyd's delivery of even reasonable lines is as grating as anything Hayden says.
Anakin should have an English accent to match Seb Shaw and should be more subdued, still lively but not cute in that annoying petulant child actor mode that bugs most films with young characters (more Pan's Labyrinth than Jingle All The Way).
If you start the film on Coruscant you don't need the scene in the Gungan city because Qui-Gon and Obi-wan need never go there.
The Naboo know about the invasion because it's been happening all around them.
Some of the elements of those scenes could be cannibalised for later though.
The story needs fixing before you even think about the visuals so doing a rough work edit to prove it can be done makes more sense than worrying about the colour palette (though that does need fixing too).
The story needs fixing before you even think about the visuals so doing a rough work edit to prove it can be done makes more sense than worrying about the colour palette (though that does need fixing too).
No question about that. I wonder if Ady has a plan about TPM?
And yes, let Ady worry about visuals, I expect every Coruscant scene to get an overhaul.
This thread isn't just for Ady, it's for anyone who wants to give this sort of thing a go but I hope he takes some ideas and inspiration from it.
So how would you handle Palpatine's manipulations? I think the reviewer made a good point about how his actions didn't help his long term goal.
Padme as the lead is a good idea. There isn't enough material to make it a true ensemble cast.
I do wish GL had given us something - good characters or a good story.
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." – John Lennon
Palpatine's long term goal is to become chancellor on a popular vote and but leave a powerful minority out in the cold long enough to become the Seperatists.
When the Senate sees it's own inaction and the corruption of the mercantile sector it votes for a leader offering them a solution.
When the bankers, corporates and traders are all tarred with the same brush they will turn to an idealistic reactionary rogue Jedi like Dooku.
If he can also have a dig at the boogeyman of his childhood (the historic enemies of the planet he grew up on and represents) so much the better.