xhonzi said:

TheBoost said:

xhonzi said:

But that's what's in the OT. Vader being seduced by the dark side was a big deal, so it must be uncommon.

I think we might have to agree to disagree here. I think Anakin is a big deal for personal reasons, not statistical ones. His fall is a big deal because we knew and loved him. And because he had so much potential to be a great Jedi. If your brother went to jail, you would feel a lot differently than seeing a ton of people you don't know in jail. Or if your no-good cousin went to jail (like mine did) that would be a lot different than your favourite cousin that you trust implicitly going to jail. It's a personal tragedy, not a galactic one.

Or, perhaps. Anakin is such a strong force user that his turn to the Dark Side has galactic consequences whereas Bob the Jedi falling to the Dark Side- not so much.

Perhaps the Force does only speak to the pure of heart. It seems likely. Being "Strong in the Force" isn't just a random mutation, but perhaps a special calling.

Yeah, it's hard to say. The mystical part of it suggests that it comes to the pure in heart... but the corruptibility is there not only for Anakin, but for Luke as well. So... of the 5 force users we see in the OT, 2 are bad and 1 is in danger of becoming bad as he develops his skills and strives to do the right thing. The 2 that are good are hermits or are so passive that they decide suicide in front of their pupil is the only way to win a lightsabre fight.

In other words, ANH seems to say that Luke can use the force because he is pure in heart. But ESB seems to say that he can blow it by being too human, too reckless, and too much like his father. RoTJ seems to say that if you stay the course, not only is it possible to remain pure, but to triumph over pure evil and to redeem the fallen.

What do we know about the jedi from the OT?

Guardians of Peace and Justice for a hecka long time.

Betrayed and Murdered by Darth Vader.

They begin training younger than their early 20s, apparently by Yoda or perhaps other Masters.

Anakin fell because he was angry and impatient. It is possible he was trained poorly and began too old.

If the Jedi can just as easily be good or bad, then they aren't Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy. They're just a bunch of people with superpowers.

I guess that brings back the discussion of "Dark Jedi/Sith." Taking what you say above, I can say, "Yes. The Jedi were all good and none were servants of the Dark Side. Likewise, the Sith were all bad and none were Guardians of Peace and Justice." I'll repeat that I'm not terribly interested in using the term Sith as an all purpose "Dark Jedi." Maybe "Fallen Jedi" is more of use since it describes them as a sub-set of the Jedi that generic statements like "The Jedi were..." may not apply to.

Good discussion.

It is a jolly good discussion.

For the time being, I'm going to stop worrying about the level of secrecy of Anakin's fall and think more about the good/bad Jedi dynamic.

THE FORCE:

What the OT tells us
Luke's ignorance of the Force is apparently a special case, since he was raised specifically that way by craggy Uncle Owen. Han and that one dude Vader chokes on the Death Star both know about it and casually dismiss it. The Rebellion uses "May the Force Be With You." With Vader's help, the Empire hunted down and destroyed the Jedi knights.

From that the following inferences seem likely.

The Rebels have embraced/maintained some connection with the role the Jedi Religion had in the Old Republic.
The Empire is blatantly anti-Force
The general public is aware to some degree of the Jedi Religion and seeingly discounts it.
The general public is probably unaware of the Emperor's status as an evil Force-Person.
If Vader has a 'sad devotion' implies that perception is that the Force is ineffectual. "ancient Religion" also implies it might have been a while since the Jedi Religion was seen as important to Galactic Politics.

Going from this, it doesn't seem that a large mass of Bad Jedi had any effect on the fall of the Republic, and that the Jedi themselves were either actually or percived as helpless and/or a non-factor in the brith of the Empire. Massive battles of Good and Bad Jedi-types would probably have made some impact on the galactic stage worth mentioning.

On the same note, 10,000 good Jedi being seen as the heroes of the Republic, as presented in the PT, would seem very unlikely to devolve into these attitudes in 19 years.