STAR WARS Movies Animated — Page 18

"That's not true, that's impossible!"

xhonzi said:

Frink asked:

Who the hell is NotPadme?

Your mom?

Funny.  But not helpful.

Actually, my mom is not Padme.  So I guess you're correct.

Anyone else?

Haha... we decided if we go through with this, then Padme should be promptly RENAMED... So in the meantime, NotPadme is the used name. =)

Thanks for the info.

If Anakin is one of many Darth Vader's, isn't this a plot point that should be explianed at some point? And isn't his accepting this identity, as well as the history of this identity, the sort of thing that the OT should have dealt with? Perhaps Palpy could have offered for Luke to become the new Vader?

This is a dramatic and total reinterpretation of the character. Darth Vader isn't one dude... he's like the Phantom. Anakin didn't become Vader, he took someone elses mantel. If the goal of the NPT is to write a series more in line with the OT, I think that would be a step in the wrong direction. In this case, I think the reaction to "I am your father" would not be shock, but confusion.

On the otherhand, the lie starting immediately has a lot of potential. Obi-Wan, who has to know Vader's actual identity, lying to the people around him immediatly (specifically NotPadme) to spare their feelings is an interesting note to his character, withoutreworking our understanding of him in the OT.

And that photo is badass. What is it from?

Also, if there are so many fallen Jedi around, how come they seem to have so little bearing on the OT? And if Obi's apprentices keep going bad, why doesn't he stop training people!?!?

My proposal is that when Anakin goes bad (still Anakin), he leads a contigent of red-sabered former-Jedi as the bodyguards of Emperor/President Palpatine. Yong bold Jedi have always looked up to him because he's badass, and his defection to Palpatine's party leads to a mass exodus from the Jedi Knights. It's not a club of evil like the Sith, but a political schism in the Jedi.

It is this group (The Legion of Lettow) that help wipe out the Jedi. But at some point Anakin/Vader or Palpatine realize that a group of superpowered asskickers with no moral code is not a good thing to have in a new government, and assassinates them all via a bomb in their shuttle.  (Inspired by the Nazi's Night of Long Knives).

This schism lets us have large scale lightsaber battles, whille not having to create some kind of 'Evil' club or having apprentices go bad left and right.

xhonzi - I know the idea of Vader being a sort of title that is passed down has been suggested earlier too, but I'm sorry I just don't like it.  I hope this doesn't sound like I'm always disagreeing, because from the moment I read it (earlier in the thread) I just thought it was fine in The Princess Bride, but wouldn't work in Star Wars (for the reasons TheBoost mentioned). Having said that your post did lead me to consider something. 

We know that at some point there has to be a showdown between Obi Wan and Anakin, which Obi Wan wins.  However, do people see that as Anakin who we all know is Anakin (pre Vader armour) or Anakin who is hidden beneath the helmet? 

I've always imagined it as Obi Wan fighting Anakin in the Vader armour.  That way when it comes to their fight in A New Hope we should all be thinking that last time Obi Wan won, so it shouldn't be a problem, but then when he lets Vader win it has more impact. 

TheBoost - I like the idea of a group of jedi following Anakin (though I don't think it should be many because I don't think there should be too many jedi crowded together - perhaps 4), but I dont think I would necessarily make them have red lightsabers, I would say perhaps only Anakin should, but I am admittedly undecided about this.  But rather than having them killed by an explosion, I think Anakin should be ordered to kill them all, this way the idea that Darth Vader hunted the jedi to extinction has even more validity. 

Johannus said:

 

We know that at some point there has to be a showdown between Obi Wan and Anakin, which Obi Wan wins.  However, do people see that as Anakin who we all know is Anakin (pre Vader armour) or Anakin who is hidden beneath the helmet? 

I've always imagined it as Obi Wan fighting Anakin in the Vader armour. 

TheBoost - I like the idea of a group of jedi following Anakin (though I don't think it should be many because I don't think there should be too many jedi crowded together - perhaps 4), but I dont think I would necessarily make them have red lightsabers, I would say perhaps only Anakin should, but I am admittedly undecided about this.  But rather than having them killed by an explosion, I think Anakin should be ordered to kill them all, this way the idea that Darth Vader hunted the jedi to extinction has even more validity. 

 My idea has been that "The Duel" would be between Obi-Wan and Anakin in white Vader armor (more in line with the Stormtroopers he commands) sans helmet. When Anakin throws his lot in with Palpy, he drops the Jedi robes for blatantly aggressive white armor. Even if it's black, i don't think he should rock the helmet until medically required to do so.

Really, the size of Anakin's bad-Jedi contingent is based on thte total number of Jedi we want in the film. My idea is that there shouldn't be more than maybe 100 Jedi. Being a Jedi is like being a Knight of the Round Table, and a big deal. If, in the first round of murders Anakin and his crew whittle the number to maybe 20, minus the ammount who've gone bad, I could see a final battle of Anakin, maybe 4-6 fellow bad-Jedi, and a contingent of Stormtroopers going against Obi-Wan and a 10 or so remaining Jedi.

During this battle the remaing Jedi are slain, and Anakin's crew could be winnowed down to 2-3. Possibly this battle directly leads to Anakin vs. Obi 1on1 and Anakin taking his lava bath. That way, when Anakin kills his own followers, he does so as full-on Darth Vader.

Anakin killing his own Legion wuld be cool, but ideally in a shady way, just so Ep. 3 isn't too heavy in "Anakin killing everyone' lightsaber fights. Perhaps in a echoing of Anakin killing the kids in the actual PT, Anakin could have his men in a 'victory celebration' and while they're partying lock the doors, ignite his saber, and we cut away.

As for saber color, I like red for the entire legion for the following reasons. I really like the suggestion that all NPT lightsabers are blue, adding a level of symbolism to Luke's green one in ROTJ. If the Legion are all followers, toadies of Anakin's boldness and defiance, red-sabers show they're all copying him as well as making battles a tad easier to follow.

A scene in my outline has Obi-Wan confronting his best pal Anakin, who is now head of Palpy's secret police, and abuot 3/4 to the Dark Side. (another layer is that everyone calls Anakin "Skywalker" and later "Lord Skywalker" when Palpatine promotes him, except Obi and NotPadme. This scene would have Obi-Wan change mode of address, underlying the distance between the two men).

• OBI-WAN: You can't serve two masters Anakin.
• Anakin removes his lightsaber, and presents it to Obi-Wan.
• ANAKIN: Take this. It no longer has any meaning to me.
• OBI-WAN: Very well, Lord Skywalker.

After that scene, Anakin would begin to wield his redsaber, a sign of his no longer seving as a Jedi. In my outline, it's one of my favorite bits, and is echoed in Anakin's final scene with NotPadme, where he challenges her to chose between her duty as the betrothed of Bail Organa, and her passion for him, and she returns to him some token of their love, cementing that she's going to marry Bail.

xhonzi said:

As long as he knows that Anakin had turned bad and that he's trying to protect his memory, why would Obi-Wan have to know Vader's actual identity?

Perhaps I'm confused.

In ROTJ Obi knows Anakin=Vader.

If Obi knows Anakin turned bad, he's still lying to Luke in ANH. Why replace the currently understood lie lie (Anakin=Vader) with another plot twist that ammounts to the same thing (Anakin=killed by someone who was Vader=but was still bad anyway)

xhonzi said:

 Maybe I need to give up my vision of full on Jedi vs Dark Jedi battle. 

 The way I see it, Vader is special. He betrayed and murdered the Jedi. If he's one of a giant army of Dark Jedi, he beceomes significantly less special.

I also don't see in the OT any sense that the struggle of the past was bad Jedi vs good Jedi. The Jedi were guardians of peace until the dark times... until the Empire, not "until a bunch of Jedi either turned bad, or another competing force of bad Jedi had war with us."

double post

but let me take this oppurtunity to say I'm glad people are playing here again.

It's nice to see this thread back in the land of the living.

I always hoped that these ideas would be thrilling and unpredictale no matter which way you watch the movies.  If I - VI, we need to keep the secrets.  If IV-VI then I - III, then we need to play with peoples expectations.  Make it look like the are getting what they figured THEN twist it.

For example: I've always been a fan of NotPadme NOT being a queen, just because everyone expects it.  But it works out really cool if NotPadme eventually ends up with Bail, that would still make Leia his step-daughter AND a princess, but not in line for the throne.  Which kind of explains why she is always princess even after the rest of her family and all of Alderaan are destroyed.

My other question for all of you stems back from pretty much the early pages of this thread:  Who says that the NPT has to be all about Anakin? Way back... it was proposed that the focus be on Obiwan and Alderaan...those things that are taken from us in IV.  This allows us to be more vague with Anakin's fall (heck, I wanted to "kill off" Anakin in Ep II). And hopefully gives us a great story arch for Obiwan about the loss of his friend, the betrayal of a student, and why he would lie to Luke about his father.

The Dark Jedi for me were my use of the Sith concept.  I always wanted them to cross the lines that my version of the Jedi would not.  They would be masked as others have shown here in the past.  Again it gives us wiggle room in EP II for who the bad guys really are.  In fact, in Ep III, I want the audience to actually support these Sith guys right up until they destroy the Jedi along with Vader (oops these guys may have gone too far). Then, since the Emperor is paranoid about others with power, after the Jedi are gone, he has Vader destroy the rest of the Sith.  Thus the DARK LORD OF THE SITH title.  The Emperor keeps Vader around since he controls his life and death because of the machinery in his body.

I just thought I would makes a reply with some of the things I have been thinking for a while now. 

The Clone Wars - most people seem to like the idea of this being the second clone war (because then it shows there is more than one)  but I think it should be the 4th or 5th clone war.  The reason is that we have had 2 world wars in our recent history, so I think mirroring those but in the context of a galaxy would actually make them seem smaller and less of a big deal for that galaxy.  Also if I remember correctly someone made the point that the greater the technology the shorter the war (generally speaking).  This could explain why there have been a number of shorter wars, rather than just two very long ones.  And finally, by increasing the number of wars I think it allows us to suggest they are becoming a real problem, because although the republic always seem to win the wars, they are not going away.  But, I would just like to point out I have no problem with the specifics people have been writing about the war, just think we should increase the number. 

The Vader Secrecy - It islooking like try as we might, this is gonna be the make or break point.  We have to know (or think) that Anakin has been killed by a 'Darth Vader' but obviously we can't show it because of the small details about it not being your run of the mill death.  We then have to have Obi Wan find out the truth, and evenually fight Vader himself, defeat him, and leave Vader with a heavy breathing mask. 

To me, the most convincing way that has been suggested so far is to have Obi Wan train Anakin, then to have him train someone else.  Anakin slowly and secretly begins to turn to the dark side because he thinks it is necessary to 'interfer' more than the jedi allow.  Whereas, the other apprentice seems to take a more obvious slide down to the dark side.  Then there would come a point where Anakin and this apprentice fight, they would both fall somewhere.  Then by the time Obi Wan gets there all we see is one person putting on a helmet (which we recognise as Vader) but we don't know which apprentice it is.  Obi Wan would ask about his apprentice and Vader would reply that 'he is no more'.  This way we maintain the secret (to some degree), Obi Wan learns the truth, they fight, etc. 

The only real problems I see with this is that if after all this Obi Wan goes to NotPadme and tells his lie, then this could make it seem like Obi Wan doesn't actually know the truth himself.  And if Obi Wan has had two apprentices, and both have turned evil, then surely he must have been out of his mind to even think of training Luke himself. 

Oh and whilst I am here I might as well make another plug for NotPadme (who I have been naming Lehra) to have jedi training.  Using the outline I just mentioned, I would have the Obi Wan vs Vader fight at the end of episode II.  Then episode III can be about how Obi Wan, Lehra and maybe a few others would try to stop the other jedi who have left the path.  Basically, episode III would show Obi Wan trying to single handedly stop the collapse of the republic and the rise of Palpatine, but obviously it is too much for him.  When he thinks he is fighting the leader of the fallen jedi he defeats him only to sense that he was wrong.  He rushes off but it too late to stop Vader (who we all assumed to be dead) from killing Lehra.  In this fight Lehra would be well out of her depth but she would be incredibly angry with Vader (we would think it is because he killed Anakin, but after the reveal in episode V we can go back and think, actually it is because she realised who he really was).  And when Obi Wan arrives Vader would be within sight but unreachable (this way Obi Wan realises he is still alive but they don't fight), and Obi Wan would be more upset about Lehra.  She could die in his arms saying something about Vader and Luke, thus forcing Obi Wan to realise he has to stop fighting and run off and protect Luke.  Also after Obi Wan witnesses what Vader is capable of, he would have no doubt there is no good left in him, and therefore, when Luke manages to save him it is an even bigger surprises.  

Crazy idea for the morning:

One of the things that always annoyed me about the OT was Leia being Luke's sister.  In itself it is not a problem, but when you have the Obi/Yoda talk in VI ("He is our only hope." " No, there is another.") and then see Leia not DO ANYTHING with the force, it just becomes a lame revelation of convenience to push Luke's buttons. (wow, that sentence got away from me there.)

So what if we take this opportunity to do something useful with NotPadme that was not offered to Leia.

What if NotPadme is "force sensitive," but not stong enough to be called for training?  Her being "force sensitive" is what (even unknowingly) draws Anakin to her.  We get to III and she is pregnant and the LIFE inside her gives her the force bump to save Obiwan at some point.  After the slaughter of the other Jedi, this would make Obiwan fear for NotPadme and her unborn child (as he stated in VI). 

I've always thought that the most difficult thing about a NPT is the birth of the children.  Creating a situation where one is born and hidden away, while the other is temporarily ignored, is really a difficult concept for me still.  Any help would be appreciated there.

WheresBlackhawk said:

I've always thought that the most difficult thing about a NPT is the birth of the children.  Creating a situation where one is born and hidden away, while the other is temporarily ignored, is really a difficult concept for me still.  Any help would be appreciated there.

I agree with you here, which is why in the outline I hinted at above I would have Vader say something to NotPadme about Luke, this way we know that he is aware of the son, but when it turns out to be twins the daughter doesnt have to be hidden away, because we know that Vader didnt know about her, so she can just be passed off as Bail's adopted daughter without anyone needing to know who her real mother was. 

xhonzi said:

 

 Let me see if I can clear my end of this confusion up.

I'm proposing at the end of Episode 3 that Anakin is not Vader yet.  That Episode 3 ends with his death- therefore before his rebirth as Vader.  So- Obi-Wan does not know that Anakin is Vader because it hasn't even happened yet.  Somepoint in time before A New Hope, he figures this out.  However, he starts the lie right away that someone else killed Anakin to protect the good memory of Anakin.  If people know someone good (Obi-Wan) killed Anakin, that reveals that Anakin was bad.  If Obi-Wan says someone bad killed Anakin (Vader or Notvader (Frink's Dad)) then that perpetuates the myth that Anakin died a good Jedi.

Any better?

 So we never see Vader in this scenario? Hmmm... could work, although we Obi-Wan still has to know Anakin=Vader.

"We last we met I was but a learner now-"

"What? We've never met!"

xhonzi said:

I think the delted scene about the lost 24 seems to back you up here.  Personally, I don't buy it.  How could there not be Dark Jedi?  How could there not be Dark Jedi in almost equal number to Light Jedi?  It's the line that all Jedi must walk, right?  Does the Force only speak to the pure in heart?  If so, then there is no threat of Luke becoming Vader II (or III or IV or LXI) and you need some kind of convoluted reason for why Anakin fell.

If the Jedi can just as easily be bad as good, then it makes them a big X-factor for the normal citizens of the galaxy and it just might be easier if they all went away and the proverbial baby was thrown out with the proverbial bath water.

But that's what's in the OT. Vader being seduced by the dark side was a big deal, so it must be uncommon. Perhaps the Force does only speak to the pure of heart. It seems likely. Being "Strong in the Force" isn't just a random mutation, but perhaps a special calling.

What do we know about the jedi from the OT?

• Guardians of Peace and Justice for a hecka long time.
• Betrayed and Murdered by Darth Vader.
• They begin training younger than their early 20s, apparently by Yoda or perhaps other Masters.
• Anakin fell because he was angry and impatient. It is possible he was trained poorly and began too old.

If the Jedi can just as easily be good or bad, then they aren't Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy. They're just a bunch of people with superpowers.