Darth Venal said:
No offence, but the change of light sabre colour, for the vast majority of people, is completely pointless and conveys absolutely no new information.
Perhaps you should see JasonN's edits first? Or at least check out the cutlist script to see how he conveyed the idea through editing as well as lightsaber color (*cough SIG cough*)
Venal, you are not a vast majority. If we're accustomed to red = bad guy, blue/green = good guy — which even if we've only seen TPM and AOTC up to this point we would be — Dooku wielding a red sabre is the giveaway that he's a villain. If you give him a different colour — any different colour — it's less likely to pigeonhole him as a simple villain in the viewer's mind.
Notwithstanding my defence of a yellow/gold sabre for him, I don't mind him getting a green one, provided the only other characters with one are Luke in ROTJ, Qui-Gon and possibly Windu if we're painting him as the unduly suspicious character that was thrown about a while ago in this thread, and all the other Jedi get blue.
TV's Frink said:
(*cough SIG cough*)
S.I.G., Captain Frink!
You make a very good point there. But I'd stick to the normal 4 lightsaber colors. None of that goldish crap. It wouldn't be a bad idea to give Dooku a green saber. In fact, I really like the idea. Anakin had a blue saber in ROTS so it would make some sense if Dooku had one.
Especially if Dooku had a couple of scenes in TPM in the Council or wherever.
The one thing I dont like is that we need to focus on the main plot, not Dooku.
Ripplin said:
TV's Frink said:
(*cough SIG cough*)S.I.G., Captain Frink!
Huh? My acronym buster is...busted.
Ghost said:
You make a very good point there. But I'd stick to the normal 4 lightsaber colors. None of that goldish crap. It wouldn't be a bad idea to give Dooku a green saber. In fact, I really like the idea. Anakin had a blue saber in ROTS so it would make some sense if Dooku had one.
Especially if Dooku had a couple of scenes in TPM in the Council or wherever.
The one thing I dont like is that we need to focus on the main plot, not Dooku.
Man, if you've figured out teh main plot to that steaming hud then you're better than me.
Darth Venal said:
No offence, but the change of light sabre colour, for the vast majority of people, is completely pointless and conveys absolutely no new information.
Semiotically, it conveys a whole lot. Conventions of Star Wars aside (red for bad guys) red has connotations with blood, searing heat etc.
Giving him a colour other than red conveys a lot in itself. We ALL associate a red saber with the bad guys. Him having something different from both the good and the bad makes us uncertain about his character.
That, and the aformentioned and already demonstrated editing to make him seem like a better person. Here are a couple of my rough editing ideas in this respect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onooMQABtcg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsJ0Dlx1hJM
I think purple would be a good choice, but not the Pinky Purple of Mace's. That way it's different from the all-blue of the current Jedi order (assuming we're talking about an edit removing all green sabers), but doesn't take away from the impact of Luke's Green saber in ROTJ.
This way, having a purple saber in the prequels actually serves a purpose other than Sam Jackson just asking for one.
RoccondilRinon said:
Venal, you are not a vast majority. If we're accustomed to red = bad guy, blue/green = good guy — which even if we've only seen TPM and AOTC up to this point we would be — Dooku wielding a red sabre is the giveaway that he's a villain. If you give him a different colour — any different colour — it's less likely to pigeonhole him as a simple villain in the viewer's mind.
Notwithstanding my defence of a yellow/gold sabre for him, I don't mind him getting a green one, provided the only other characters with one are Luke in ROTJ, Qui-Gon and possibly Windu if we're painting him as the unduly suspicious character that was thrown about a while ago in this thread, and all the other Jedi get blue.
What a joke. You're saying your average Joe who sees these movies gives a fuck about a yellow/purple/green/orange light sabre? Yes, blue is good and red is bad, I'm sure most people pick up that much. But are you really suggesting that those same casual viewers read ANYTHING into other colours of light sabres? If you think that you're deluding yourself. That was the vast majority I was referring to.
And this logic you're going on about Dooku being a character of unknown affiliation... exactly how long do you think viewers were wondering which side he was on? If the script was trying to pull off some mystery about him then it fails completely. There's ambiguous dialogue with Obi-Wan after he sees Dooku colluding with the Seperatists which achieves nothing whatsoever because it's so badly written, then a scene or two later he's watching two Jedi and a Senator about to be slaughtered. Oh, and then he flees, fights three Jedi and escapes to be with his Sith master. At what fucking point are we supposed to be wondering whose side Dooku was on?
Give me a fucking break.
Darth Venal said:
And this logic you're going on about Dooku being a character of unknown affiliation... exactly how long do you think viewers were wondering which side he was on? If the script was trying to pull off some mystery about him then it fails completely. There's ambiguous dialogue with Obi-Wan after he sees Dooku colluding with the Seperatists which achieves nothing whatsoever because it's so badly written, then a scene or two later he's watching two Jedi and a Senator about to be slaughtered. Oh, and then he flees, fights three Jedi and escapes to be with his Sith master. At what fucking point are we supposed to be wondering whose side Dooku was on?
Give me a fucking break.
I don't think anyone here is under the impression that the film in its current form implies that Dooku's affiliations are unknown. We're talking in respect to edits, where he is made a rogue Jedi who is the only one who knows that the republic is being controlled by the very evil they want to destroy.
The scene with him reporting to Sidious would be removed in such edits, and the other scenes you mention, tinkered with.
This is why we're editing the movies in the first place, you nitwit. We can MAKE him mysterious and ambiguous. It's trivial to remove his scene with Sidious, as many edits do. That he's the enemy of the Republic and therefore the Jedi isn't in dispute; whether he's actually a bad guy can be made to be much less certain than it is in the official cut.
And if you care to notice, I'm basing my argument for changing his sabre colour based SOLELY on the fact that most people will make the association red = evil, which you yourself admitted. Any more symbolism risks being wanky, but so does a lot of what we do here.
I think giving him a blue or green saber is all you need to get the point across. Then give him a red saber in ROTS.
Okay, and we need Dooku's already under-developed character to be even more vague because..? If anything, you should be strenghtening the character, not undermining it by being even less defined.
Removing his meeting with Sidious is one of the stupidest things I've heard so far. This isn't directed at everyone, by the way, but to those I've been debating this with. Do you have any idea about character? About script writing? Because it seems not. Suggestions about making his character even more nebulous - sorry, mysterious - and pages of debate about repainting a light sabre... what?!
All you'll end up doing is ruining about the only half-decent performance in the movie, and making already convoluted events even less clearly defined. Yes, that's what Attack of the Clones needs, less clarity in the script. And hey, after all, it's only the third act of the fucking movie, why bother giving us any sort of conclusion whatsoever? Why have the movie end with the Sith having succeeded in their machinations to start a war? Less is more, after all(!). Well, not when the script already has nothing, it isn't.
Less is more
That is the mindset that needs to go into editing.
Who said anything about making him any less developed? The point is to make him more complex, rather than the two-dimensional villain he is. I consider this to be strengthening. Nobody's suggesting that we remove the film's conclusion or make it any less satisfying. If you like the film the way it is, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?!
Ghost said:
Less is more
That is the mindset that needs to go into editing.
Could you be a bit less specific?
Darth Venal said:
Removing his meeting with Sidious is one of the stupidest things I've heard so far. This isn't directed at everyone, by the way, but to those I've been debating this with. Do you have any idea about character? About script writing? Because it seems not. Suggestions about making his character even more nebulous - sorry, mysterious - and pages of debate about repainting a light sabre... what?!
I think removing that meeting not only isn't stupid, but is crucial. A big problem with the prequels is that they spell everything out for the viewer. We know in AOTC (due to both Jango Fett and this meeting) that both warring sides are controlled by the same people, making Palpatine revealing himself in the next film as a Sith completely and utterly unsurprising.
Could you be a bit less specific?
What happend to less is more?
I meant simplifying the plot of the PT.
RoccondilRinon said:
Who said anything about making him any less developed? The point is to make him more complex, rather than the two-dimensional villain he is. I consider this to be strengthening. Nobody's suggesting that we remove the film's conclusion or make it any less satisfying. If you like the film the way it is, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?!
The point is to make him more complex? How, by removing the only shape his character has got. If you think doing that makes him more mysterious and complex, go ahead. Where you see mysterious, I see vague. And congratulations on not understanding anything I said, by the way, judging by your response. I obviously come across as someone who thinks this movie is just swell as is. And yes, somebody suggested removing the scene with Sidious and Dooku meeting, and why? Because it instills mystery... What a brilliant idea. Remove any confirmation that Dooku is working with Sidious, after he's fought Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin. But don't worry, we'll know exactly who he was aligned with in the next movie in the three minutes he appears before being removed from the plot.
Lucas already tried to put mystery into Episode II and admitted it didn't work, so they had to shoot new stuff to replace it. Not that that worked any better.
Yes, and I agree that scene should go if we're playing Dooku this way. How is that scene necessary to the film's conclusion? It tells us NOTHING we need to know.
I understand what you say, I just understand that it's wrong. Have you even seen any of these edits to judge how it works?
RoccondilRinon said:
Yes, and I agree that scene should go if we're playing Dooku this way. How is that scene necessary to the film's conclusion? It tells us NOTHING we need to know.
I understand what you say, I just understand that it's wrong. Have you even seen any of these edits to judge how it works?
Playing Dooku what way? Exactly what are you left with if you remove the scene with him meeting Palpatine? You keep saying a mystery figure. I say it's a mess. What good is a mystery figure in the movie if he's killed at the start of the next without any further development? It doesn't create a mystery of any sort, it just weakens the plot even further.
Darth Venal said:
And yes, somebody suggested removing the scene with Sidious and Dooku meeting, and why? Because it instills mystery...
Not at all. It's because the Prequels as they are now spell everything out for us. There are no surprises, no great revelations. Everything is spelled out beforehand removing any dramatic impact there may have been.
And, seeing as we're discussing an edit where Dooku is a good person, that scene can't possibly remain.
I don't see where your logic comes from to be honest. Being less certain of Dooku's character adds depth in my eyes. As it is now, he's your archetypal moustache twirling, monocle wearing type of villain. He's doing bad things because the plot says he has to.
As a rogue Jedi, he's fighting the republic, possibly has to watch his old comrades die, but it's all for the greater good. Nevertheless, an inner conflict would come across.
Darth Venal said:
What a brilliant idea. Remove any confirmation that Dooku is working with Sidious, after he's fought Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin. But don't worry, we'll know exactly who he was aligned with in the next movie in the three minutes he appears before being removed from the plot..
1. The Seperatist side does not necessarily equal Sidious' side in an edit.
2. It's not even necessary to have him revealed as Sidious' apprentice in the next film. He can remain a good person, which makes Anakin killing him carry that much more weight.
Venal, I think you and Ric Olie would get along really well....
RoccondilRinon said:
Venal, I think you and Ric Olie would get along really well....
Why, is he also of the opinion that you have no idea what you're talking about? Because I know I am.
No, you just want things simplified and explained ad nauseam. Doing so is his only purpose in life.
You seem incapable of grasping the idea of a plot which includes shades of grey, in which the antagonist can be a good person, or the villains aren't necessarily working together.
Venal, would you just watch my Prequel edits and see how a "Dooku is a rogue Jedi" plays out before you start calling the ideas total sh*t?
:/