The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 127

TheBoost said:

RoccondilRinon said:

As just as staunch an atheist, I think you're rather missing the point. It's fiction, more to the point it's fantasy, and the Force is one of the most archetypal fantasy elements in there. It loses a LOT of its character if you reduce it to some technobabble that doesn't actually explain anything. Either explain how these midichlorians enable telekinesis, telepathy, precognition and what-have-you, which would take a whole movie in itself, or don't try to handwave it away and instead embrace its fantastic nature.

 Replace the word 'midichlorians' in the PT with 'fairiy-elf powder' and it readily becomes apparent that it's not biology or science or any attempt at a real kind of explanation. The existence of midichlorians really only serves a plot point so they could do a "force-test" on Anakin's blood. 

It's not technobabble becase knowledge or non-knowledge of the midichlorians has no bearing on the plot or character actions. Anakin never breaks into a lab and takes a syringe full of midichlorians to become more badass, and R2 never reverse the polarity of the midichlorians in order to save the day.

But see in the OT the Jedi and Sith could just sense, through the Force, if someone is powerful. They didn't need to get ER on us and run a analysis of someone's cell count.

Ric Olie said:

I *hate* midichlorians.  Just like I hate any kind of abstract concept.

Ha ha.

Damn, gives this Ric guy an Oscar, now! (the one Hayden will never have will do good)

DuTwan:

the force was a mystical energy that could be wielded by anyone with the right training, the force was stronger with some families.

Well that sort of contradicts the point you're making.

There's a simple question: Why is the Force stronger with some families, as Return of the Jedi establishes?

Answer given in the prequels: It's genetic.

Again, I don't like the writing in the PT at all, but I don't see why a genetic quality is such a bad thing with regards to Force sensitivity. I think Lucas wrote it very badly, but perhaps that, coupled with all the genetic manipulation/cloning stuff going on was his way of making the PT relevant in some way.

Well, he can jump off all the cars he likes for me. Just as long as he stays out of lead roles in blockbusters. His performance in Jumper made his Star Wars jobs look almost adequate. But hey, the guy ain't bad to look at...

This is for the girls. Hehe.

And this is for the boys. Hehehe.

And this is for everyone....

(just look at my avatar)

Well, Ric, you do realise the reason you weren't asked back for the sequels is because they didn't want you outshining Hayden Christensen. Yes, of course you do. What was I thinking?

Dude, don't ever hesitate to tell me something I already know.  Makes me feel right at home.

Darth Venal said:

DuTwan:

the force was a mystical energy that could be wielded by anyone with the right training, the force was stronger with some families.

Well that sort of contradicts the point you're making.

There's a simple question: Why is the Force stronger with some families, as Return of the Jedi establishes?

Answer given in the prequels: It's genetic.

Again, I don't like the writing in the PT at all, but I don't see why a genetic quality is such a bad thing with regards to Force sensitivity. I think Lucas wrote it very badly, but perhaps that, coupled with all the genetic manipulation/cloning stuff going on was his way of making the PT relevant in some way.

I agree with that. But still, the midis didn't really add anything or answer questions needing to be answered. They merely created more and then sorta dropped out for two films with a bit of a mention in ROTS.

You're right and I agree. They were introduced and then never elaborated upon. Not a massive amount we can do about that now.

I blame Liam Neeson. :-)

I'm not against the concept of Midichlorians.  As has been mentioned earlier, it's a nice way to explain why the Force runs strong in some families. But, as has been mentioned also, they just don't do anything with it. The concept is just thrown out there, and personally, I think it just raises questions that are never answered.

For example, what happens when a Jedi loses a lot of blood? Anakin was said to have such a strong connection to the Force because of his midichlorian count, so does this mean that when a Jedi loses a lot of blood he loses (some of) his connection with the Force? What about blood transfusions? Can you make non Force sensitive person sensitive to the Force by blood transfusion? Also, if Force sensitivity is genetical, this means Sidious could have cloned himself a new apprentice, rather than go through the risky process of recruiting a new one. And instead of Fett, he could have cloned a Force user and create himself a whole army of Sith Lords.

Funny you should say that, because in the expanded universe, he did indeed clone himself.

Would a woman pregnant with, say... two Jedi twins start moving things around the room with her mind?

They would have a shared blood supply.

This is beginning to sound like the hilarious routinue about the Mogwai rules in Gremlins 2.

Bingowings:

Would a woman pregnant with, say... two Jedi twins start moving things around the room with her mind?

They would have a shared blood supply.

Hehe I know what you mean. But taking your question literally, you're actually incorrect about that. Mother and baby do not share the same blood supply. Any exchange of oxygen and nutrients happens through the membranes of the placenta, and the blood supplies of both never mix. Think about it; a baby can have a completely incompatible blood type to its mother, so mixing could be very harmful, even fatal, to both. Also, they would have identical heartbeats if they only had one blood network.

It's also for this reason that a baby carried by a woman who is HIV+ amazingly has only a 30% chance of being HIV+ itself, and the vast majority of that 30% happens during delivery. Sounds incredible, but that's why.

Darth Venal said:

Bingowings:

Would a woman pregnant with, say... two Jedi twins start moving things around the room with her mind?

They would have a shared blood supply.

Hehe I know what you mean. But taking your question literally, you're actually incorrect about that. Mother and baby do not share the same blood supply. Any exchange of oxygen and nutrients happens through the membranes of the placenta, and the blood supplies of both never mix. Think about it; a baby can have a completely incompatible blood type to its mother, so mixing could be very harmful, even fatal, to both. Also, they would have identical heartbeats if they only had one blood network.

It's also for this reason that a baby carried by a woman who is HIV+ amazingly has only a 30% chance of being HIV+ itself, and the vast majority of that 30% happens during delivery. Sounds incredible, but that's why.

Ok that just smacks my post over on the Wish List thread out of the park, shame really because it was actually beginning to sound useful.

LOL, sorry Bingo. Nice thought, though.

Bingowings said:

Ok that just smacks my post over on the Wish List thread out of the park, shame really because it was actually beginning to sound useful.

Heh, biological fact strikes again! Don't give up yet, I liked where you were going with that!

The idea to introduce a more sinister side to the Jedi Order also appealed to me... Something to suggest the decadence in their organization and their stubborn adherence to outdated orthodoxy...maybe'd give a bit more credence to Anakin's betrayal. 

The Concierge said:

 

The idea to introduce a more sinister side to the Jedi Order also appealed to me... Something to suggest the decadence in their organization and their stubborn adherence to outdated orthodoxy...maybe'd give a bit more credence to Anakin's betrayal. 

Agree, we often try to make Anakin darker here and it's good, but the thing to do is to make the Jedi less likeable so we can connect with Anakin.

At a point (maybe when they watch the hologram of Vader and Sidious) Yoda and Obi needs a scene where they understand that what happens to Anakin is as much their fault than Palpatine's. And all their actions in the following scenes and movies will be to redeem themselve.

Well I think that is already pretty much what Lucas had in mind, it's just not very well done actualy.

TMBTM:

Yoda and Obi needs a scene where they understand that what happens to Anakin is as much their fault than Palpatine's

How can it be as much their fault? Palpatine was the one who single-handedly set all the events in motion, even down to the implication that he manipulated the midichlorians to cause Anakin's immaculate conception. And he was the one who corrupted him, and encouraged him to act against the Jedi. Yes, the Jedi had become arrogant and blinded over the years, but in no way are they as responsible for Anakin's corruption and downfall to the Dark Side as Palpatine.

Qui-Gon uses the Force to cheat a slave owner out of one slave rather than liberating all the slaves (despite all the slaves being outside his supposed remit to save).

The council are fully aware of his strong connection to his mother but not only do they not check up on her or move her away from danger they forbid Anakin to have anything to do with her even when he senses she is in danger and repeatedly tells his master.

They are aware that this has had some terrible consequence but don't bother to investigate it.

They are aware of Anakin's attraction to Padme and the dangers of having them in close contact with each other and yet they actually encourage it, when it suits them and then slap his wrists when it does not.

They are aware of Palpatine's interest in Anakin and encourage and attempt to exploit that too.

All along they fluctuate between being convinced that he is the chosen one and yet wary to the point of deliberate humilation of actually trusting him.

Palpatine doesn't really create any of the situations that work to his advantage he knows how to take what is already going wrong and twist it to his benefit and lets the good guys do all the hard work.

Bingowings:

Qui-Gon uses the Force to cheat a slave owner out of one slave rather than liberating all the slaves.

So you're suggesting Qui Gon and Obi Wan would have stood a chance in freeing all the slaves? Of course they wouldn't. And they had a task at hand which was actually more important, regarding the fate of Naboo. So should they have left Anakin on Tatooine, despite his clear Jedi potential?

They are aware of Anakin's attraction to Padme.

When? Not even Obi Wan has any knowledge of it until it has happened. The odd glance or comment here and there doesn't explicitly state anything.

They are aware of Palpatine's interest in Anakin and encourage and attempt to exploit that too

They don't encourage Palpatine's interest at all. From their dialogue, they clearly find it quite sinister, and exploit it only to find out what Palpatine is up to.

Palpatine doesn't really create any of the situations that work to his advantage he knows how to take what is already going wrong and twist it to his benefit and lets the good guys do all the hard work

That's just not correct at all. He creates Anakin for the very purpose of him eventually becoming his Trojan Horse in the Jedi Council. As Darth Sidious, he manipulates the Trade Federation into blockading Naboo, his own planet, so that the Queen will seek help from the Senate, not get it, and then he becomes Supreme Chancellor, and from then on he has the power to do the rest. He manipulates Anakin with fear and "counsels" him in ways that are contrary to the Jedi teachings, teasing him with the prospect of being able "to save the one you love". To say Palpatine doesn't create any of this chain of events is really quite absurd.

Darth Venal said:

Bingowings said:

They are aware of Anakin's attraction to Padme.

When? Not even Obi Wan has any knowledge of it until it has happened. The odd glance or comment here and there doesn't explicitly state anything.

There is a deleted scene in EP 2 between Mace and Obi Wan where Obi Wan talks of Anakin's "connection" to Padme and how he is distracted by her.  Yes, it wasn't in the movie proper, but the fact that Lucas filmed a scene like that indicates that he was at least thinking about it a little.  Perhaps he cut it for that reason.  At any rate, several faneditors have used that scene to replace the similar one between Mace, Obi, and Yoda, and using the deleted scene does make the Jedi seem a little more to blame.

A bigger issue for me is the EP 3 scene between Anakin and Yoda, where Anakin goes to Yoda for advice.  Anakin basically comes out and tells Yoda he's in love with *someone*, and Yoda's advice is to forget about her.  At that point, shouldn't they be keeping a closer eye on him?

Perhaps they should, but by that point, there were much bigger things going on than Anakin possibly being in love. Keeping an eye on him is one thing, but they had no idea how bad things were going to get. And like you said, the Episode 2 deleted scene is just that, and not part of the movie's narrative.