Bingowings said:
skye1083 said:
Hi! I decided to stop lurking and join the discussion. I have read almost all of this thread (sad I know) and I would love to see some of these ideas become reality.
About the Ben/Luke conversation, someone suggested that it be cut altogether, and I think I have to agree. I don't mind Leia being a Skywalker - it's pretty much set in stone now, but it would be nice if Luke showed some of that famed Jedi insight and just knew that Leia was his sister.
So how about this: Luke training on Dagobah, Yoda dies, Luke being unsure, cut to Vader & DS, back to Luke preparing to leave, R2 beeps a message, show X-wings monitor with message from Leia or Threepio about the rescue, Luke heads to Tatooine. I think it would be easier to piece together.
Welcome to our wonderful world of head scratching.
Cutting the Ben's ghost bit is problematic in it's own right, we really need to see Luke confront Ben about the great fib, Luke doesn't really get a chance to lay into Yoda because by the time he asks him about it he's already dying.
The poor boy is pretty much manipulated by his masters, they aren't the white hats they pretend to be.
As for Luke figuring it out for himself without help, he sure picks his moments and it's such a wacky story shift that it needs someone else to explain it (for once exposition does come in handy).
To have Luke find out his mentors have lied to him, his dead father is a living murdering despot wannabe and to figure out for himself that the lovely lady he has been gleefully snogging for the last two episodes is his sister and not to have anyone to bitch about it to would be enough to pull even the most seasoned Jedi to the dark side.
Palpatine wouldn't need to do anything.
Seeing Fishmanlee's mockup (the music change doesn't really add much and I doubt if the sound could be successfully be rebuilt around the change) does point up that the ship positions need to be changed as the last ships just disappear they don't shoot off to the same vanishing point the earlier craft do.
I assume that they would all jump to the same spot if they are going to the same space (they certainly would just fade out like that).
But that is the point: the test isn't physical but mental.
Even with the Ben scene it isn't much of a confrontation (be it the script or the acting). Having Luke being forced to deal with the revelation without being able to vent at Ben, and then having to face Vader and the Emperor completely alone without the aid of any supernatural force, would show Luke's move from a child to an adult. In fact, if you look at A NEW HOPE, EMPIRE and JEDI, the pattern of Luke's development as a character is essentially: kid, teenager, adult.
In the first film, he is naive and energetic. While he has a father figure who teaches him the basics (having a good work ethic, basic sense of morals, etc), he finds a grandfather figure who gives him a greater sense of purpose other than simply working for a living. He loses his mentor but gains purpose and direction. It is essentially a child's fantasy: his toys come alive, the bully becomes his best friend and he gets the girl while blowing up the bad guys, ending with him being rewarded for it for everyone to cheer.
In the second film, there is nothing to really cheer about. Luke is in a leadership position, but not one of the generals but off to one side. His leadership at best allows for escape instead of victory, and for the rest of the movie he is either ignoring the advice his mentors give him or he is arguing with it. When he goes to Bespin, the excuse is to save his friends, but it is most likely so he can get revenge against Vader for killing Ben (regardless of Ben's spiritual state). In the end, he is all but alone, loses the girl, barely escapes with his life and finds out that his mentor betrayed him (as most teens feel to some degree with their own parents)
In the third film, Luke has to bail out his friends in a fairly sloppy rescue attempt. It isn't perfect (as it would be), but it works. Vader is quieter and Luke is more vocal - compare Luke and Vader in EMPIRE to how they interact in JEDI with how a father would interact with a rebellious teenager to the same father and son 10 to 20 years later. In the end, Luke is almost in the position of Vader at the end of the Bespin fight, where he fights with his words as well as his weapons.