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Seeing the Saga in order - a review by a first-time viewer.... — Page 4

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Well, if Lucas just removed the spoilers from the PT, this whole nonlinear approach to watching the saga could be avoided. Yet how we saw the PT turned out, watching a six film saga is not advisable. Although it has been said to death, principles need to be reinforced.
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Originally posted by: bigbaddaddyvader
Now let's not be pedantic.This thread is about the saga,six movies,and the preferrable order.In THAT context Star Wars is ANH.As a matter of fact if we are talking about watching the original trilogy,IV-VI,in any order it is still ANH as it was changed o this pre-ESB thus making Star Wars ANH in every sense other than as a stand-alone.


Sorry if my rationale doesn't please you, but, at the end of the day, I really don't care.

And in terms of history, Star Wars, even after A New Hope was added to the title, was still referred to as Star Wars in every home video release until the 2000 VHS boxset (including the 1997 Special Edition boxset), so, no, your own logic doesn't hold water in terms of Star Wars being A New Hope in every context except as a standalone movie.

EDIT: One other innaccurate point. It was released with "A New Hope" added to it in 1981, after Empire Strikes Back, not before it. Of course, now I'm just picking hairs, but then again, that's pretty much what you were doing to my post to begin with, right?


I may have misunderstood the point you were trying to make and accept the mistakes I made in the post.I referred to Star Wars as ANH as it is now the most convenient way to distinguish titles since we have six movies.

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Incidentally I didnt mean to seem like i was having a go.I misunderstood the point and replied poorly too.I am fairly new here and would not like to start pissing people off just yet

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Yeah, sorry if I replied a little curt because it did seem to me that you were having a go at me. That's why I didn't reply after I saw your first message because it was much more polite than I was expecting, so it somewhat flabbergasted me, so, yeah. I'm glad everything's cool.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Thanks.I dont like to very confrontational and I am enjoying this board a lot.Gives my geek room to breathe.....

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 (Edited)

Have any opinions changed in the two and a half years since this thread was last active?  Anybody new want to contribute to the discussion?

As for me, I was interested in the 4-5-1-2-3-6 order back then.  Today I feel strongly that it is the ideal order.  (BTW, I think the new material is best viewed after the saga, 4-5-1-2-3-6-TCW, rather than putting TCW in its chronological place between 2 and 3.)  Watching it 4-5-1-2-3-6 I notice so many things that work best that way.  A few:

 

 

• If you like twists, the 4-5-1-2-3-6 order maintains the best surprises for Star Wars virgins who have been in a coma for the last 30 years.  In Ep 5 the viewer has the “Holy poodoo, that little green troll is Yoda!” twist and the “Holy poodoo, Darth Vader is Luke’s father!” twist.  At the end of Ep 3 are the “Holy poodoo, Luke has a twin!” and “Holy poodoo, the twin is Leia!” twists.  Thank goodness the Hoth kiss is a distant memory by the time that particular twist is revealed in the 4-5-1-2-3-6 order; the kiss is creepier if the relationship is revealed before the kiss.

 

• 4-5-1-2-3-6 answers questions in a dramatically natural order.  After the revelation that Vader is Luke’s father, there are two questions: “How the heck did that happen?” and “What happens next?”  It makes sense to answer the first question before the second so viewers can watch the resolution with a better understanding of the events and situations that lead to it and who the characters are.

Feng Zei points out that there may be another question after Ep 5: “Is Vader telling the truth about being Luke’s father?”  If that is a question then I think that watching Anakin’s early life story and seeing what unfolds is a more dramatic way to get the answer than simply having Yoda say, “Your father he is.”

 

• 4-5-1-2-3-6 has an opening that grabs viewers from the start.  “A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...  Star Wars - Episode IV - A New Hope.  It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy....”  That’s one of the great openings in cinematic history.

It’s a hell of a lot more interesting than “Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.”  If the viewing experience starts there, it’s not a good hook.  Why should viewers care about how the Galactic Republic decides the issue of taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems?  Why should they care about the battle between the Trade Federation and Naboo?  The opening crawl lets them know who the bad guys are and who the good guys are by calling the TF “greedy” and calling Naboo a “small planet,” but it isn’t one tenth as compelling as the opening crawl in Ep 4.

If Eps 4-5 are watched first then the viewers see Ep 1 knowing that they’re seeing the events that lead to the rise of the Empire, so they have a reason to be interested.  This is even more compelling after 4-5 than after 4-5-6.  After 4-5, the Empire is a scary evil power that rules the galaxy with brutality; after 4-5-6, the Empire is a flash in the pan that ruled the galaxy for about 23 years.  The former inspires more desire to know its origins than does the latter.

 

• Fang Zei said, “That last scene of Empire is just as much if not more about how they're going to get Han back. This gets completely interrupted if you stop to watch the PT between Empire and Jedi.”  I think that interruption is a good thing because it’s a cliffhanger and cliffhangers become more compelling when one must wait for the resolution.  TV shows typically place their biggest cliffhangers at the end of the last episode of the season so that the viewer has to wait all summer to see how it’s resolved, instead of placing them in the middle of midseason episodes so that the viewer only has to wait through a commercial break to see how it’s resolved.

Waiting through the PT also makes Han’s hibernation feel longer.  If the end of Ep 5 is followed immediately by Ep 6, it feels like the carbon hibernation was brief and just another incident in the life of Han Solo.

 

• The arc of Anakin’s redemption is more connected.  At the end of Ep 3, Padmé says of Anakin, “There is good in him. I know there is still...”  This flows right into Ep 6 in which Luke believes, despite the protests of Ben and Yoda, that there is good in Anakin that can be brought back to the surface.

The Emperor’s arc is more connected.  In Eps 4 and 5, he is a shadowy presence of which we know little, then we see who he is and how he rises to power in the PT, then we see his big showdown and ultimate fate in Ep 6.  If instead the viewing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6, then by the time the PT is over the viewer knows Emperor Palpatine as a real specific person who is conspicuously and without explanation absent in 4-5 before returning to his prior level of visibility in Ep 6.

So basically in the 1-2-3-4-5-6 order, the stories of Anakin and Palpatine are developed for three episodes, put on hold for two episodes, and concluded in the final episode.  Watching their stories as 1-2-3-6, without interrupting them for 4-5, makes those stories more cohesive.

 

• Many of the characterizations in Ep 6 are inconsistent with the characters presented in Ep 5.  Perhaps the most glaring (but far from only) example is the cocky “They're not going to get me without a fight”/“Never tell me the odds”/“I know” Han Solo of Eps 4-5 being replaced by the insecure “Could you tell Luke, is that who you could tell?”/“All right, I won’t get in the way” Han Solo of Ep 6.  Putting the PT in between 5 and 6 makes the inconsistencies between 5 and 6 less glaring.  (It makes the continuity error of Leia remembering her birth mother more glaring, but that’s a minor point.)  Obi-Wan and Vader in particular seem more like the characters we see at the end of Ep 3 than the characters we see in Eps 4-5.

 

• As I mentioned in an earlier post, I like having the series bookended by Death Stars in the first and last episode viewed.  When 4 and 6 are viewed with only a single episode between them, so that a Death Star is present for a movie, absent for one movie, and back again for the next movie, it makes the Death Star feel more commonplace.

 

• The tone of 6 is more consistent with the tone of 1-2-3 than the tone of 4-5.  In 4-5, the Empire is evil and brutal; Ep 5 is especially dark.  Ep 6, with its shih-tzus and slapstick approach to action, is more like the “This is where the fun begins” approach to action in the PT than the darker approach in 4-5.

 

 

There are more reasons, too.  If you have never watched the saga in the 4-5-1-2-3-6 order, give it a try and let us know what you think.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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There isn't any bloody "saga". There's just the Star Wars trilogy and there's the bunch of ripoffs called the prequels.

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Cap, I really, really hate myself for saying this, but ... that actually kind of makes sense ...

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Vaderisnothayden said:

There isn't any bloody "saga". There's just the Star Wars trilogy and there's the bunch of ripoffs called the prequels.

Actually i beg to differ the saga is:

Star Wars 1977

The Empire Strikes Back 1980

Return of the Jedi 1983.

The best way we have to enjoy the saga at the moment is through the gout, otherwise i agree with your point.

To me the prequels and special editions are all EU since they have very little to do with the Saga as it existed pre 1990's. Just cause lucas comes along and sanctions them as canon does not make them canon in my mind.

Lots of stuff like coruscant is taken right from the EU stuff that does not belong in the canon series as much as i like Zahn's trilogy.

As the original author and creator he had a right to retcon and change things so drastically, but it is strictly unfair to pretend all these happenings happen in the same universe and continuity of the original series why not just come out and admit he erased the real versions and replaced them with an alternate continuity as the new canon?

I do agree that George Lucas has changed the intent and mentality of the entire series as vinh has stated many times, and he is correct in his assessments as far as my opinion goes.  And this from giving it a lot of thought and reading through the secret history of star wars.  It really fucking pisses me off that we were denied the real and true prequel films and the sequel trilogy and giving this shit at the same time as burying the oot.

This great breech in continuity that i will always remember as the false and misleading Hayden Skywalker years, an entirely separate branch of films than the original star wars trilogy i loved and grew up with.

 

I don't want to sound like some religious zealot, as star wars in not a religion just a piece of fiction.  But was a nice piece of science fiction/fantasy escapism in my youth.  Lucas says the are just movies, and he is right they are just movies, but they moved the heart, mind and spirit and stirred the imaginations of generations of young people.

I would hope that is what he accomplished with the younger kids and people out there with the prequels, but as i cannot speak for them only my own experience i just don't see it.  But admittedly perhaps i am extremely jaded as a fan, star wars was made for simpler times and for less critical and cynical approaches as modern films seem to show. My nephew enjoys the 2004 original trilogy and the prequels and clone wars, so i guess lucas has done something right and knows his audience and it is children.  Not 30-40 something year olds. 

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Cap, I really, really hate myself for saying this, but ... that actually kind of makes sense ...

Yeah, I'm surprised to agree.  Interesting post, Cap.

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Ditto.  I was quite well prepared to say that  4-5-1-2-3-6 was the stupidest thing I'd ever heard.  I probably won't watch the prequels ever again, but if I did, I might give this a try.

Actually, maybe it's better I say it like this: I like the idea of this.  Maybe if the prequels were 'good' or 'watchable' I would watch them this way.  Your logic is pretty interesting, and keeping Han on ice a little longer and separating the Death Stars sounds good, but other than that I don't see the PT, as currently constituted, enhancing my enjoyment of the OT, regardless of where or when they are watched.  They're just not worth watching to me.

But good job- almost thou persuadest me.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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4-5-1-2-3-6... the more I think about it the more I like it, Cap. :)

The only things would be to add in the text crawl of episode 1: "20 years before the events described in the previous episode...."

and: "22 years after the birth of the Galactic Empire" in Episode 6 crawl.

Also rename all the episode exept episode 6

Ep 1 ANH

Ep 2 ESB

Ep 3 TPM

Ep 4 AOTC

Ep 5 ROTS

Ep 6 ROTJ

If Adywan like the idea this could be done once the whole revisted saga is complete.

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I don't even consider the prequels EU-they exist in an alternate universe where everything sucks.

Before the dark times....before the backstories.........

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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Something else about the 4-5-1-2-3-6 order appeals to me that I just thought about.  I find JasonN's prequel fanedits to be the best that I have seen to this point.  But one thing that bugs me is that he cut out Leia's birth in EP 3.  Now, it doesn't bother me that he did this if I watch EP 3 in isolation.  But If I were to watch in order 1-2-3-4-5-6, it presents a problem when we get to 6.

My original rationalization was this: The filmakers (hah!) deliberately concealed Leia's birth from the audience so it would be a surprise when we get to Leia and Luke in EP 6.  Of course the problem is, why would they conceal Leia's identity in the prequels, but not Vader's?

But if I watch it 4-5-1-2-3-6, this problem would go away.  We don't know Vader's identity until the end of 5.  Then we watch 1-3, without knowing about Leia, and when we get to 6, we are surprised to learn who Leia is.  Interesting.

I've been thinking quite a bit about how to present Star Wars to my daughter, although she is still several years away from watching it.  I always assumed we would go 4-5-6-1-2-3, but now I've got to consider this 4-5-1-2-3-6 proposal instead...

 

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captainsolo said:

...an alternate universe where everything sucks.

 

I've heard some crazy ideas for alternate universes:

Where gravity pulls you up instead of down.

Where Hitler won WWII.

Where you're born old and get younger and younger until you become a 2 celled organism right before you cease to exist at all.

Where the Prequel Trilogy was actually good.

Where Superman landed in Russia.

 

But this is the saddest alternate universe of them all:  Where everything sucks.  :(

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi said:

Maybe if the prequels were 'good' or 'watchable' I would watch them this way.
If you do ever decide to give the PT another chance, I strongly recommend the ADigitalMan edits, which I find to be far more watchable than the official versions. JasonN’s edits are also popular; two posts above this one TVF calls JasonN’s the best version of the PT he has seen, and I have often encountered that opinion. There are other fanedits out there as well. I guess the best thing to do would be to spend a little time reading about them and deciding which seem most appealing to you. My “vote” is for the ADM cuts.

ChainsawAsh said:

Cap, I really, really hate myself for saying this, but ... that actually kind of makes sense ...

TV's Frink said:

Yeah, I'm surprised to agree. Interesting post, Cap.

xhonzi said:

Ditto.... good job- almost thou persuadest me.

TMBTM said:

4-5-1-2-3-6... the more I think about it the more I like it, Cap. :)

TV's Frink said:

I've been thinking quite a bit about how to present Star Wars to my daughter... I always assumed we would go 4-5-6-1-2-3, but now I've got to consider this 4-5-1-2-3-6 proposal instead...
Heh. This made my day. :-) Thanks, everybody.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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cap said:

 

JasonN’s edits are also popular. Two posts above this one TVF calls JasonN’s the best version of the PT he has seen, and I have often encountered that opinion.

I should be careful when I talk about the relative merits of the prequel edits.  I did mean it when I said that JasonN's are my favorite.  But I am taking everything into account, which includes audio/video quality (especially 5.1 audio, which is something I dearly love).  I think Slumberland's edits are also excellent, and from an editing perspective I think I slightly prefer Slumberland to JasonN.  However,  JasonN's A/V is much better, so when I sit down to watch one, I pick JasonN.

cap said:

There are other fanedits out there as well. I guess the best thing to do would be to spend a little time reading about them and deciding which seem most appealing to you. My “vote” is for the ADM cuts.

For those who don't know, I've done full cutlist scripts of all the prequel edits I've seen.  I've posted links to all the scripts on OT.com - just follow the link in my sig.

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TV's Frink said:

Something else about the 4-5-1-2-3-6 order appeals to me that I just thought about.  I find JasonN's prequel fanedits to be the best that I have seen to this point.  But one thing that bugs me is that he cut out Leia's birth in EP 3.  Now, it doesn't bother me that he did this if I watch EP 3 in isolation.  But If I were to watch in order 1-2-3-4-5-6, it presents a problem when we get to 6. 

Just so that people are aware of it, I am still working on a fanedit of RotJ where Leia is no longer Luke's sister, so that issue of my EP3 edit will be resolved with my EP6 edit.

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TV's Frink said:

I've been thinking quite a bit about how to present Star Wars to my daughter, although she is still several years away from watching it.  I always assumed we would go 4-5-6-1-2-3, but now I've got to consider this 4-5-1-2-3-6 proposal instead...

Another point to consider, particularly for younger viewers, is the note on which you want to end.

In ROTJ, Anakin throws off the yoke of darkness and reemerges as a good person.  The Emperor is defeated.  There is a big celebration with music, dancing, and fireworks, and the heroes pose for a group photo as a father and teachers look on with pride.  It’s a cathartic and uplifting conclusion to the series and belongs at the end, not buried in the middle.

By contrast, ROTS ends on a sad note in the middle of the story, a conclusion that is likely to be unsatisfying to younger viewers, and a less fitting conclusion than ROTJ even for older viewers.

Lucas has stated that his intent is that the episodes be watched in the order 1-2-3-4-5-6.  (This is also attested to by the fact that the upcoming 3D versions will be released in that order.)  ROTS was never intended as a conclusion the way ROTJ was.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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Then why was the tagline for ROTS, "The Saga Complete"?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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First: That was marketing.

Second: The line was actually “The Saga is Complete.”  Which was true, regardless of viewing order.  Before ROTS was released, only episodes 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 existed, so the Saga was incomplete.  With the release of ROTS, all six episodes were available, so the Saga was complete.

Third: The tagline for TPM was “The Saga Begins.”  If “The Saga is Complete” signals that ROTS was intended to be watched last then “The Saga Begins” must also signal that TPM was intended to be watched first.  How are you going to make that consistent?  I don’t think you can.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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First:  Why does that matter?

Second:  Nope.  Just checked my DVD before writing that post.

Third:  Of course you can't!  That's the point.  The marketing of the prequels has been nothing but inconsistent.  Despite all the official word saying that the prequels should be watched in a certain order, that mentality is constantly negated by itself.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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There must be a way of altering the PT to keep all the surprises intact (do we even need to see Yoda in the PT? He could be an oft mentioned but never seen Jedi master of great power so when we see him ESB it intensifies the physical incongruity).

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First: Marketing was intended only to sell tickets, not to provide insight into Lucas’s artistic vision.  It’s irrelevant to this discussion of Lucas’s intended viewing order.  Why did you bring it up?

Second: OK, I believe you.  I was going by IMDB, which may be mistaken.  Where is it on the DVD?  Not that the presence or absence of “is” is material to the discussion.  Before ROTS was released, the Saga had not been completed.  With the release of ROTS, the Saga was complete.  That has nothing to do with Lucas’s intended viewing order.

Third: Lucas can release the 3D versions of the films however he darn well pleases.  The fact that he has chosen to do so in 1-2-3-4-5-6 order is a pretty strong signal that he believes the films are best watched in that order.  He has stated the same in interviews.  Now it’s possible that his views on the subject have changed over time and that ROTS was intended as a conclusion when he made it, but absent evidence of such a change of opinion, there is no evidence that ROTS was intended as a conclusion.  ROTJ clearly was.

Not that Lucas’s intent is the end-all-be-all of the discussion.  Ultimately, what matters is what works dramatically.  IMO, ROTJ makes a much more satisfying conclusion to the series than ROTS does.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.