Star Trek 11 - Star Wars? — Page 2

TheBoost said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

 

What's your proof that I'd be saying the same thing about any other actor who took the Anakin role? You have no proof of that. Whatsoever. The situation with Hayden is not merely the situation of an actor other than Shaw taking the role. It's a situation in which an especially inappropriate actor was given the role. There are many actors I would have been happier with. So no I wouldn't necessarily have been complaining. You'd do well not to make careless statements about me that are not based on any proof.

 

 But the part was still written and directed to be a whiny teenager in AOTC, and then a moody young man prone to crying in ROTS. Do you suppose any actor could have pulled that off in a way you would call "Vader-worthy?" Is it even possible, in ur opion?

Another actor could have done it better than Hayden. And anyway, it didn't have to be written that way. The way it was written was not consistent with the Anakin we were given in the OT.

Vaderisnothayden said:

TheBoost said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

 

What's your proof that I'd be saying the same thing about any other actor who took the Anakin role? You have no proof of that. Whatsoever. The situation with Hayden is not merely the situation of an actor other than Shaw taking the role. It's a situation in which an especially inappropriate actor was given the role. There are many actors I would have been happier with. So no I wouldn't necessarily have been complaining. You'd do well not to make careless statements about me that are not based on any proof.

 

 But the part was still written and directed to be a whiny teenager in AOTC, and then a moody young man prone to crying in ROTS. Do you suppose any actor could have pulled that off in a way you would call "Vader-worthy?" Is it even possible, in ur opion?

Another actor could have done it better than Hayden. And anyway, it didn't have to be written that way. The way it was written was not consistent with the Anakin we were given in the OT.

 we don't learn much about him in the OT anyways. all we hear about him is from Obi-wan.

This is all i recall:

Anakin was a great pilot, the best in the star galaxy btw. a cunning warrior and amazingly strong in the force. he was seduced by the dark side of the force and from a certain point of view, he was dead.

lastly, he new he had a child, but not a twin due to the fact that his children were hidden from him after they were born.

did i miss anything? this is all i recall.

rcb said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

TheBoost said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

 

What's your proof that I'd be saying the same thing about any other actor who took the Anakin role? You have no proof of that. Whatsoever. The situation with Hayden is not merely the situation of an actor other than Shaw taking the role. It's a situation in which an especially inappropriate actor was given the role. There are many actors I would have been happier with. So no I wouldn't necessarily have been complaining. You'd do well not to make careless statements about me that are not based on any proof.

 

 But the part was still written and directed to be a whiny teenager in AOTC, and then a moody young man prone to crying in ROTS. Do you suppose any actor could have pulled that off in a way you would call "Vader-worthy?" Is it even possible, in ur opion?

Another actor could have done it better than Hayden. And anyway, it didn't have to be written that way. The way it was written was not consistent with the Anakin we were given in the OT.

 we don't learn much about him in the OT anyways. all we hear about him is from Obi-wan.

This is all i recall:

Anakin was a great pilot, the best in the star galaxy btw. a cunning warrior and amazingly strong in the force. he was seduced by the dark side of the force and from a certain point of view, he was dead.

lastly, he new he had a child, but not a twin due to the fact that his children were hidden from him after they were born.

did i miss anything? this is all i recall.

No, we learn more about him than that. Kenobi says rather more than you mention there. And we actually MEET him. And the character Shaw played could never have been the character in AOTC and ROTS, and nor could the OT's Vader for that matter. We learn plenty about Anakin in the OT, quite enough to tell he could never be the PT character.

skyjedi2005 said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

rcb said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

TheBoost said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

 

What's your proof that I'd be saying the same thing about any other actor who took the Anakin role? You have no proof of that. Whatsoever. The situation with Hayden is not merely the situation of an actor other than Shaw taking the role. It's a situation in which an especially inappropriate actor was given the role. There are many actors I would have been happier with. So no I wouldn't necessarily have been complaining. You'd do well not to make careless statements about me that are not based on any proof.

 

 But the part was still written and directed to be a whiny teenager in AOTC, and then a moody young man prone to crying in ROTS. Do you suppose any actor could have pulled that off in a way you would call "Vader-worthy?" Is it even possible, in ur opion?

Another actor could have done it better than Hayden. And anyway, it didn't have to be written that way. The way it was written was not consistent with the Anakin we were given in the OT.

 we don't learn much about him in the OT anyways. all we hear about him is from Obi-wan.

This is all i recall:

Anakin was a great pilot, the best in the star galaxy btw. a cunning warrior and amazingly strong in the force. he was seduced by the dark side of the force and from a certain point of view, he was dead.

lastly, he new he had a child, but not a twin due to the fact that his children were hidden from him after they were born.

did i miss anything? this is all i recall.

No, we learn more about him than that. Kenobi says rather more than you mention there. And we actually MEET him. And the character Shaw played could never have been the character in AOTC and ROTS, and nor could the OT's Vader for that matter. We learn plenty about Anakin in the OT, quite enough to tell he could never be the PT character.

Except that now thanks to Lucas retcons starting in Empire Strikes Back Obi Wan is an Untrustworthy person who lies or tells his version of the truth from a certain point of view.  When Star Wars 77 was shot what obi wan told luke in his hut was the absolute truth. his father was betrayed and murdered by his other star pupil vader. 

I get the impression that Kenobi had two apprentices at the same time who were brothers of a sort and firends that had a falling out and vader killed his friend skywalker, so kenobi chased him down to a lava pit and dueled him and killed vader, or so he thought until he found out palpy had his body reconstructed.

Was it jealousy, pride over who was a better pupil, who  the master liked better.  Would be like one of those samurai or kung fu tales where the student does this.

How would the sequels come off if Vader was not the father but the man who killed lukes father and master, it is strictly a tale of revenge.  No leia as the sister or vader as the father. 

Not only that Vader brought dishonor onto his order the jedi knights by his actions. 

 from wat i understand is that at first, Obi-wan killed luke's father. but anyways, vaderisnothayden, who we saw was and old man, i wouldn't c him acting like a baby either. but when ur younger u act differently.

plus, both actors, u couldn't tell if they had been vader. vader was a character of his own, so the two characters we saw were their own unique selves.

rcb said:

skyjedi2005 said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

rcb said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

TheBoost said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

 

What's your proof that I'd be saying the same thing about any other actor who took the Anakin role? You have no proof of that. Whatsoever. The situation with Hayden is not merely the situation of an actor other than Shaw taking the role. It's a situation in which an especially inappropriate actor was given the role. There are many actors I would have been happier with. So no I wouldn't necessarily have been complaining. You'd do well not to make careless statements about me that are not based on any proof.

 

 But the part was still written and directed to be a whiny teenager in AOTC, and then a moody young man prone to crying in ROTS. Do you suppose any actor could have pulled that off in a way you would call "Vader-worthy?" Is it even possible, in ur opion?

Another actor could have done it better than Hayden. And anyway, it didn't have to be written that way. The way it was written was not consistent with the Anakin we were given in the OT.

 we don't learn much about him in the OT anyways. all we hear about him is from Obi-wan.

This is all i recall:

Anakin was a great pilot, the best in the star galaxy btw. a cunning warrior and amazingly strong in the force. he was seduced by the dark side of the force and from a certain point of view, he was dead.

lastly, he new he had a child, but not a twin due to the fact that his children were hidden from him after they were born.

did i miss anything? this is all i recall.

No, we learn more about him than that. Kenobi says rather more than you mention there. And we actually MEET him. And the character Shaw played could never have been the character in AOTC and ROTS, and nor could the OT's Vader for that matter. We learn plenty about Anakin in the OT, quite enough to tell he could never be the PT character.

Except that now thanks to Lucas retcons starting in Empire Strikes Back Obi Wan is an Untrustworthy person who lies or tells his version of the truth from a certain point of view.  When Star Wars 77 was shot what obi wan told luke in his hut was the absolute truth. his father was betrayed and murdered by his other star pupil vader. 

I get the impression that Kenobi had two apprentices at the same time who were brothers of a sort and firends that had a falling out and vader killed his friend skywalker, so kenobi chased him down to a lava pit and dueled him and killed vader, or so he thought until he found out palpy had his body reconstructed.

Was it jealousy, pride over who was a better pupil, who  the master liked better.  Would be like one of those samurai or kung fu tales where the student does this.

How would the sequels come off if Vader was not the father but the man who killed lukes father and master, it is strictly a tale of revenge.  No leia as the sister or vader as the father. 

Not only that Vader brought dishonor onto his order the jedi knights by his actions. 

 from wat i understand is that at first, Obi-wan killed luke's father. but anyways, vaderisnothayden, who we saw was and old man, i wouldn't c him acting like a baby either. but when ur younger u act differently.

plus, both actors, u couldn't tell if they had been vader. vader was a character of his own, so the two characters we saw were their own unique selves.

 from wat i understand is that at first, Obi-wan killed luke's father. but anyways, vaderisnothayden, who we saw was and old man, i wouldn't c him acting like a baby either. but when ur younger u act differently.

There's rather more to it than that. Yes you change as you age, but some people have an innate substance to their personality that's going to show to at least some extent at any age and some people are just not capable of substance and aren't going to get it no matter how old they get. ROTJ's Shaw Anakin is an example of the former and the AOTC/ROTS Anakin is an example of the latter. It's simply not possible for somebody like the AOTC/ROTS Anakin to turn into the ROTJ Anakin. It's far more than a difference in maturity.

plus, both actors, u couldn't tell if they had been vader. vader was a character of his own, so the two characters we saw were their own unique selves.

Not true. Vader was just Anakin gone dark with a new name stuck on. Vader was not a character of his own, he was a stage of Anakin's development, so his personality has to relate to Anakin's. Vader (in the OT) had substance and force of personality. The AOTC/ROTS Anakin didn't have it in him to develop that, so he couldn't have become OT Vader. And don't forget, Anakin had already turned to the dark side and become Vader before he fought Kenobi on Mustafar. So that Anakin we saw on Mustafar was Vader. And that character could never become the villain we saw in the OT. By contrast, ROTJ Anakin had something to him and was thus much more plausible as somebody who'd been Vader.

now that u mention it, that might be a better plot. obi-wan kills anakin, or so he thinks, and then later he finds it as big a shock as luke does. that would twist up the story for the OT though. idk, something like that.

xhonzi said:

What, no one wants to discuss my wild and baseless accusations?  No one wants to disagree with me?  Surely, VINH will come and tell me I'm wrong?

Ur rt. Obvsly.

xhonzi said:

What, no one wants to discuss my wild and baseless accusations?  No one wants to disagree with me?  Surely, VINH will come and tell me I'm wrong?

Why would I get worked up about it? You're just considering alternative ways of doing the prequels.

Gaffer Tape said:

rcb said:

from wat i understand is that at first, Obi-wan killed luke's father.

Nope, that was never part of the story (that we are aware of), although it would have been a pretty cool reveal.  The notion that Obi-Wan killed Luke's father was from the fake page of the script in ESB in order to preserve the true secret from even those who worked on the movie. 

Which rubs in just how much it was a SECRET and supposed to be a surprise. That surprise is an important part of ESB. And the point there is that the film sure as hell wasn't designed to be seen after a whole trilogy that tells you Luke's father turns into Vader. Just as it's supposed to be a surprise that the little green guy was Yoda, because the film wasn't designed to be seen after a whole trilogy in which everybody knows Yoda is a little green guy who talks backwards. The OT, contrary to propaganda, was not designed to be seen after watching the prequel trilogy, as one big six-part movie. Obviously, Lucas had some sort of prequel trilogy thought up back then to some extent, but he didn't design the OT to be seen right after it. He designed the OT as if it was intended to be seen without viewing any other Star Wars material before it. (And of course you can bet that whatever PT he had planned back then was damn different from what he ended up with.)

Vaderisnothayden said:

Gaffer Tape said:

rcb said:

from wat i understand is that at first, Obi-wan killed luke's father.

Nope, that was never part of the story (that we are aware of), although it would have been a pretty cool reveal.  The notion that Obi-Wan killed Luke's father was from the fake page of the script in ESB in order to preserve the true secret from even those who worked on the movie. 

Which rubs in just how much it was a SECRET and supposed to be a surprise. That surprise is an important part of ESB. And the point there is that the film sure as hell wasn't designed to be seen after a whole trilogy that tells you Luke's father turns into Vader. Just as it's supposed to be a surprise that the little green guy was Yoda, because the film wasn't designed to be seen after a whole trilogy in which everybody knows Yoda is a little green guy who talks backwards. The OT, contrary to propaganda, was not designed to be seen after watching the prequel trilogy, as one big six-part movie. Obviously, Lucas had some sort of prequel trilogy thought up back then to some extent, but he didn't design the OT to be seen right after it. He designed the OT as if it was intended to be seen without viewing any other Star Wars material before it. (And of course you can bet that whatever PT he had planned back then was damn different from what he ended up with.)

 i think GL put the OT first on purpose. this way we got to wonder how the hell anakin became vader. then the PT comes and explains everything.

besides, if the PT came first, we'd be complaining about the OT, that is if it was as big a success as the OT was back then.