Stuff about the original releases of ANH, with what a book says (early variations in ANH)

I read some stuff on imdb which people on this site advised me to take with a pinch of salt (seeing as it's imdb). But then I read the same thing in a book from 1999 put out by a respectable publisher and I found myself wondering if I now had reason to take it more seriously.

The book is the George Lucas Companion by Howard Maxford, published by Batsford. What's said is A) that in some prints on opening day (for ANH, obviously not called that then in 1977) the scene in which Chewie scares the mouse droid was absent. And B) That the Beru actress Shelagh Fraser was dubbed in all but the original print.

I've heard of the mouse droid thing as an unconfirmed rumor. I didn't know it had any more standing than that (beyond being mentioned in imdb). But if it was so unconfirmed would the writer be including it in his book?

(I think there's some other book out there that claims the Luke missing the grappling hook scene was real, but I got the impression that was a less respectable book than this one.)

As for Beru, I've heard that she was dubbed in all sound mixes and was never heard in releases of Star Wars to the public. But this piece of information about her being dubbed in all but the original print is presented as evidence of Lucas making changes before the SE, implying the original actress's voice did reach the public at some time, like in the opening releases or something. But I would assume that would require another sound mix we haven't heard of. Can anybody sort this out? 

The mouse droid thing is unverifiable, and thus largely considered to be bullshit.

The Beru voice is either dubbed by a different actress, or a different take of the same actress was used, in the 1977 mono version.  The 1977 stereo, 70mm six-track, 1985 remix, 1993 remix, 1997 SE mix, and 2004 SE remix all use the same take/voice, but the mono mix uses a different one.

None of the mixes use the actress' real voice.

And the mono mix was the last one made, and the one made with the most attention to detail and care, since it was the version that the majority of the country would see.  But (like the Beatles' albums), since "mono" has since become a dirty word, the stereo versions have been used since, despite the fact that they weren't considered the "real" version at the time.

And Lucas has made changes prior to the SE - he added Episode IV: A New Hope and reformatted the crawl in 1981, and he (possibly) changed the brightness of the Artoo-in-the-canyon scene (to make it look slightly darker) in 1993 for the Definitive Collection laserdisc, though this is unconfirmed - it's possible that prior releases were incorrectly color timed, as we don't have a reference to compare them to.

From what I've heard, the stereo mixes were made rather quickly, so they would have a stereo mix and could fold it down to mono if necessary.  If they'd made the mono mix first and run out of time, they wouldn't have had a stereo mix at all (which, IIRC, was advertised quite clearly on the posters).  So they got the stereo mix done quickly so it would be done, then spent more time on the mono mix to perfect it since that was what most people would see.  I'm not too sure where the six-track fit into all this, though.

And I've heard the mono mix (I have it if you'd like me to send you the links, Gaff) - it's fantastic, and (in my opinion) superior to the stereo mixes I've heard.  I have never heard the 1977 theatrical stereo, though, just the 1985 and 1993 mixes (though I have all three).

A) Wasn't the 70mm basically the same as the stereo?

B) Wasn't there stereo showing on opening day, not just 70mm?

Looking here  http://www.in70mm.com/news/2003/star_wars/index.htm it seems there were only 8 engagements of 70mm at first, so the film did not start out exclusively in 70mm and presumably also started in 35mm. They say it's mistaken to think that the film started exclusively in 70mm and only went to 35mm weeks later. But they also seem to think it's not true that the opening was exclusively dolby stereo (70mm and 35mm), which implies they think the mono was part of opening too. I don't know where they get that, because what I've heard is that the mono was still being worked on (recorded) on opening day and wasn't released until sometime in the summer. I think it was zombie84 who spoke of anecdotal evidence of Lucas still recording the mono when the film opened. if they could be wrong about that, could they be wrong about the other thing? Surely if there were only 8 70mm opening engagements then there had to be more to the opening than 70mm.

Also, it's my impression that there weren't any pre-85 laserdiscs and that 85 was the start of ANH on laserdisc.

I don't have a link for it, but I've read an interview with Mark Hamill in which he stated he was going to see the movie after it came out, when he got a call from Lucas asking him to come in and dub more lines for the mono mix, which hadn't been completed yet.  This would give further credence to reports of the mono version not coming out until after the others.

I have to wonder if those re-recorded lines have since been lost, since they never appeared on any later mixes other than the mono.  Or perhaps it was simply a 'creative' decision to retain the originals.

I'm pretty sure the 35mm stereo came out first, followed closely by the 70mm.  The 70 is nearly identical to the 35, but it does have a few added sound effects, namely the screeching sound when Vader destroys the first Y-wing in the trench, and a loud explosion when the Falcon saves the day by destroying the first of Vader's wingmen.  Other than that, the main difference between the two is from the vastly superior dynamics and bass content of the 70, which are at least partially represented by the '93 remix, and by having discrete channels.

The mono version is interesting.  In some parts it really does sound more polished and complete than the stereo track--I particularly like the added 'deceleration' sound when the Falcon comes out of lightspeed, and the whining of stressed electronics when the ship is caught in the tractor beam.  (Though obviously it is missing the strong bass of the 70mm version.)  A subtle but cool change is that the beeping intercom in the cell bay shootout starts much earlier, while Luke and Han are still blasting away, showing that the people on the other end were very quick to respond to the disturbance in the detention block.  The music throughout the movie is more audible and really pulls you into the excitement of the film.  But some things they changed are definitely less good.  The sound just before C-3PO says "Did you hear that?  They shut down the main reactor.  We'll be destroyed for sure," is for some reason very tinny and subdued in comparison to the stereo, and I don't like the alterations to stormtrooper dialogue such as "close the blast doors", which are very obviously not the same voice, and distractingly unnecessary.  The '44 Magnum laser' in the chasm shootout is questionable too.

Obviously, everyone's view of what mix is best will vary according to what they heard first and what they come to prefer through repeated listening.  It's hard to pick out any single one as being superior in all aspects to the others.  Each has their strong suits.

Oh yeah, I forgot that the ".44 Magnum" thing came from the mono mix ... I'm willing to overlook it for the other aspects that are (in my opinion) vastly superior.  I may look into fixing the blaster sound for my Star Wars edit - it's definitely evolved beyond the point of staying faithful to the mono mix.

And I knew that the six-track mix was for 70mm screenings, I just didn't know if it was considered more or less complete and "final" than the stereo or mono mixes.

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

Also, it's my impression that there weren't any pre-85 laserdiscs and that 85 was the start of ANH on laserdisc.

This isn't true - the 1977 theatrical stereo is available on one non-time-compressed and several time-compressed laserdiscs.  The 1980 theatrical Empire mix is also available on laserdisc (Dark_Jedi recently ripped it and is working on synchronizing it to the GOUT).  I have no idea if the Jedi 1983 theatrical mix is available on laserdisc.  Or if it was remixed in 1985.  Or 1993 for that matter ...

ChainsawAsh said:

Oh yeah, I forgot that the ".44 Magnum" thing came from the mono mix ... I'm willing to overlook it for the other aspects that are (in my opinion) vastly superior.  I may look into fixing the blaster sound for my Star Wars edit - it's definitely evolved beyond the point of staying faithful to the mono mix.

And I knew that the six-track mix was for 70mm screenings, I just didn't know if it was considered more or less complete and "final" than the stereo or mono mixes.

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

Also, it's my impression that there weren't any pre-85 laserdiscs and that 85 was the start of ANH on laserdisc.

This isn't true - the 1977 theatrical stereo is available on one non-time-compressed and several time-compressed laserdiscs.  The 1980 theatrical Empire mix is also available on laserdisc (Dark_Jedi recently ripped it and is working on synchronizing it to the GOUT).  I have no idea if the Jedi 1983 theatrical mix is available on laserdisc.  Or if it was remixed in 1985.  Or 1993 for that matter ...

But when did these discs come out and are we talking official discs here?

But were there any US lasediscs before 85? Or UK?

Gaffer Tape said:

But in this case, in terms of mono, there is some subjectivity to it.  Although the majority of the country would see it in mono, the mono mix was the last of the original three to be completed, so I would think there is some validity to a claim that one of the original stereo mixes is more the "original" version than the mono.  Granted, I would still like to hear the mono version at some point in my life.

But, geez, when you get right down to it, there are just far too many sound mixes for Star Wars.  It makes my head spin.

I don't know if I trust anymore the claims that the mono was completed after the release date. But even if it was showing from the start with the stereo, I don't know if I respect its having a preeminent status over the other two mixes. Just the fact that the other two mixes were valid mixes getting exposure around the same time and not being promoted as "These are the less definitive mixes" says to me that in real terms they're all about equal in standing (by real terms I don't mean in what Lucas wanted, I mean looked at aside from that, taken as what they are). Plus if the mono's status was so damn important wouldn't they have put it on vhs instead of the stereo? They did put the tractor beam line into the 85 vhs (but not onto the 82 vhs), but I don't know if they bothered to put the blast doors line in and for the "definitive" laserdisc collection they supposedly "forgot" to put in the tractor beam line, which sounds terribly like the mono lines weren't a high priority. To me it just looks like the mono's special "definitive" status didn't count for a lot even to Lucas and co. I view the mono and other versions as roughly about equal in status. Same goes for the 35mm and 70mm for ESB.

And when all's said and done, I'm not inclined to lend a lot of weight to Lucas coming along later and tinkering with something and saying the later version is the definitive version.

The other question as regards versions of ANH kicking around way back, is whether or not some sort of workprint with the deleted scenes ever got publicly shown way back. We don't have verification that such a thing happened, but we also have no proof that it didn't, along with lots of claims that it did. Let's just pretend for moment that it did happen, what would be the conditions in which it might have happened? Would it have been meant to be an official form of the film, like the different mixes, or would it have been sort of "We're running out of prints, let's send out the workprint" or a case of "Whoops, wasn't that the workprint we just sent out"? Did they deliberately intend to release the workprint as an official version with standing on a level with the different mixes? How widespread could it have been, compared to the two stereo mixes? Some of you must have a much better notion than me about these questions and of how such a thing might have happened and how it might have been intended.

And what's this about most people seeing the movie in mono? How widespread would the two stereo mixes have been then?

That 44 magnum gunshot was already an old library sound effect (see Dirty Harry). The live blanks just sounded like firecrackers. Maybe it was a temp sound that started to seem really cool after weeks of cutting and mixing.

doubleofive said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

Gaffer Tape said:

But in this case, in terms of mono, there is some subjectivity to it.  Although the majority of the country would see it in mono, the mono mix was the last of the original three to be completed, so I would think there is some validity to a claim that one of the original stereo mixes is more the "original" version than the mono.  Granted, I would still like to hear the mono version at some point in my life.

But, geez, when you get right down to it, there are just far too many sound mixes for Star Wars.  It makes my head spin.

I don't know if I trust anymore the claims that the mono was completed after the release date. But even if it was showing from the start with the stereo, I don't know if I respect its having a preeminent status over the other two mixes. Just the fact that the other two mixes were valid mixes getting exposure around the same time and not being promoted as "These are the less definitive mixes" says to me that in real terms they're about equal in standing. Plus if the mono's status was so damn important wouldn't they have put it on vhs instead of the stereo? They did put the tractor beam line into the 85 vhs (but not onto the 82 vhs), but I don't know if they bothered to put the blast doors line in and for the "definitive" laserdisc collection they supposedly "forgot" to put in the tractor beam line, which sounds terribly like mono lines weren't a high priority. To me it just looks like the mono's special definive status doesn't count for a lot. I view them as roughly about equal in status. Same goes for the 35mm and 70mm for ESB.

And when all's said and done, I'm not inclined to lend a lot of weight to Lucas coming along later and tinkering with something and saying the later version is the definitive version.

The other question as regards versions of ANH kicking around way back, is whether or not some sort of workprint with the deleted scenes ever got publicly shown way back. We don't have verification that such a thing happened, but we also have no proof that it didn't, along with lots of claims that it did. Let's just pretend for moment that it did happen, what would be the conditions in which it might have happened? Would it have been meant to be an official form of the film, like the different mixes, or would it have been sort of "We're running out of prints, let's send out the workprint" or a case of "Whoops, wasn't that the workprint we just sent out"? Did they deliberately intend to release the workprint as an official version with standing on a level with the different mixes? How widespread could it have been, compared to the two stereo mixes? Some of you must have a much better notion than me about these questions and of how such a thing might have happened and how it might have been intended.

And what's this about most people seeing the movie in mono? How widespread would the two stereo mixes have been then?

I think most of the problem is that mono had become and still is such a "bad" word that no one really wants to say "we worked harder on the mono version" (except The Beatles, as of yesterday).  Especially in the 70's when STEREO was such a huge deal.  And by the 80's when people were getting the tapes and LDs no one wanted mono, they wanted STEREO to go with their new sound systems and no one really wanted to go back to the original mono mix and replicate the changes they had made in them.  Then the 90's came and Lucas went back to some of the takes from the mono and put it in the "all new" mix, bringing them to light and legitimacy, but he did not go back and re-cut the entire movie to encompass all of the changes they had made back in 77.

Hold on, he incorporated some of the mono takes when in the 90s? I know the SE uses some mono stuff, but before that there's just the tractor beam line being put into the new mix in 85 but not in 93. I don't know if any of the other mono lines ("blast it Wedge" and the blast doors line) were included in the 85 mix, let alone the 93 mix.

SilverWook said:

My earliest U.S. LD copy dates from 1983. Pan and scan, and time compressed.

Unless you lived in a large city at the time, it was less likely you had a 70mm theatre nearby. Installing Dolby stereo gear for 35mm was probably an expensive proposition for small theatre chains, and they wouldn't jump in unless they thought it would pull in more crowds. Just like now we are starting to see IMAX, 3D, and digital projection in smaller towns.

The overwhelming reason at the time to do the mono mix is, nobody was sure Dolby Stereo was going to catch on. (Just like some early widescreen movies were shot twice to have a version able to be projected on older screens.) It's hard to believe these days, where even the dollar theater has Dolby Digital, but there were a couple other sound systems tried out that never made beyond use in one movie or two.

Seen any movies in Sound 360 or Megasound lately? ;)

All three SW sound mixes are valid, the mono just had the benefit of being tweaked a bit more.

The 80's saw a lot of mono films "electronically re-channeled for stereo" on home video. Even early stereo tv broadcasting put a fake stereo effect on older shows and even some then current ones.

Unless you lived in a large city at the time, it was less likely you had a 70mm theatre nearby. Installing Dolby stereo gear for 35mm was probably an expensive proposition for small theatre chains, and they wouldn't jump in unless they thought it would pull in more crowds. Just like now we are starting to see IMAX, 3D, and digital projection in smaller towns.

A lot of Americans lived in big cities.

The 80's saw a lot of mono films "electronically re-channeled for stereo" on home video.

Which is what I would have expected them to do with Star Wars if the mono being definitive was so important.

Ref. the mouse droid:

What I've read (possibly in Skywalking, not sure though) is that the mouse droid scene was improvised on set - so, it wouldn't have been in the shooting script but presumably was in all release prints.

doubleofive said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

doubleofive said:

I think most of the problem is that mono had become and still is such a "bad" word that no one really wants to say "we worked harder on the mono version" (except The Beatles, as of yesterday).  Especially in the 70's when STEREO was such a huge deal.  And by the 80's when people were getting the tapes and LDs no one wanted mono, they wanted STEREO to go with their new sound systems and no one really wanted to go back to the original mono mix and replicate the changes they had made in them.  Then the 90's came and Lucas went back to some of the takes from the mono and put it in the "all new" mix, bringing them to light and legitimacy, but he did not go back and re-cut the entire movie to encompass all of the changes they had made back in 77.

Hold on, he incorporated some of the mono takes when in the 90s? I know the SE uses some mono stuff, but before that there's just the tractor beam line being put into the new mix in 85 but not in 93. I don't know if any of the other mono lines ("blast it Wedge" and the blast doors line) were included in the 85 mix, let alone the 93 mix.

Sorry, he incorporated some of the mono mix into the stereo mix in 85, but never in any version I saw.  The 97 SE has elements from the mono, but not ALL the elements from the mono.  Is it because those were the only good parts, or because he didn't want to really remix the entire soundtrack to incorporate all the changes?

I'm still going to go with the mono being the final draft, but too much work for him to take apart the mono or go back to the sources to recreate all of the changes in stereo/6 channel.

What was put into the 85 mix from the mono apart from tractor beam line?

I know there was some sound effect sweetening in the 85 mix but I don't know if that came from the mono. There was some mono bits in the THX mix even though not the tractor beam line as far as I know.

The mono's intended final draft status doesn't really count much for me. The SE was meant to be the final draft too. I think nobody in 77 or the years immediately after was told they were going to watch a final draft version of the film or a non-final draft version.

And if it was possible to put mono films into stereo video then it would have been possible to make a stereo video out of the mono mix if the final draft status was so important to them, which obviously it wasn't.

The 1985 stereo mix is nearly identical to the original '77 in overall sound, with the obvious addition of the tractor beam line.  The '85 version has a wider stereo image/greater channel separation.

The 1993 version is a stereo downmix of the 70mm soundtrack with additional effects mixed in.  With its dedicated LFE tracks, the original most likely had greater bass content, but the '93 has as much as 16-bit 2-channel dynamics will allow for.  The Star Destroyer flyby in the beginning has fairly strong content from 35-45 hz (the better your sound system, the more you'll get out of this), and other places have good response in the 50-60 hz range.  As far as the added sound effects, Belbecus made a detailed comparison between the 93 and an in-theater tape recording of the 70mm, located in this thread.  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/70mm-mix-to-93-mix-comparison/topic/6501/  While no mono dialogue was used, he notes that about half of the effects additions were also used in the mono mix(!).

Thanks. :)