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The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 112

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The problem with the Obi Wan Kenobi: Space Detective storyline is that it goes absolutely nowhere and makes not only him, but the entire Jedi order look like retards because even after unconvering an obvious conspiracy, they do nothing about it, but instead play right into its hands.

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As far as I know, Qui-Gon was always meant to die in TPM. Certainly it wasn't shoehorned in after Neeson made it clear he didn't want to do another one (which itself I've only heard on here). I remember watching an interview when the movie came out; he was asked if this would be his only appearance given his character's death and he said roughly "Well, you can never be too sure, this being Star Wars after all".

The Hobbit: Roadshow Edition

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Well I remember distinctly, it was no secret how much he hated the green screen process and Lucas' emotionally-void directing. Neeson hated it, and actually stated that he was so disillusioned with acting he might retire. Seriously. It took him a while to calm down, but he was still done with it. And I don't think anyone believes Qui Gon wasn't supposed to cameo in Episode II or III. In fact, he was supposed to appear in Episode II in a cameo, and then wasn't the press statement that he'd had a motorcycle accident or something? Funny that in 18 months of post production, when they did a month of reshoots AND green-screened in other actors like Oliver Ford Davies, that Neeson wasn't available for his ONE SCENE. And look at the Force ghost explanation that is thrown in at the end of Episode III.
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brash_stryker said:

The problem with the Obi Wan Kenobi: Space Detective storyline is that it goes absolutely nowhere and makes not only him, but the entire Jedi order look like retards because even after unconvering an obvious conspiracy, they do nothing about it, but instead play right into its hands.

And specifically, the map reader scene really makes Obi Wan look like an idiot.  It's a very cool looking scene, but he really couldn't figure out that the planet was erased from the archive?  Even after mentioning himself the effects of gravity still remaining?  He never even considered flying off to where the planet should be?  Maybe if the youngling who had the right answer had also trained Anakin, the empire would never have been born...

 

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TV's Frink said:
brash_stryker said:

The problem with the Obi Wan Kenobi: Space Detective storyline is that it goes absolutely nowhere and makes not only him, but the entire Jedi order look like retards because even after unconvering an obvious conspiracy, they do nothing about it, but instead play right into its hands.

And specifically, the map reader scene really makes Obi Wan look like an idiot.  It's a very cool looking scene, but he really couldn't figure out that the planet was erased from the archive?  Even after mentioning himself the effects of gravity still remaining?  He never even considered flying off to where the planet should be?  Maybe if the youngling who had the right answer had also trained Anakin, the empire would never have been born...

 

Holy Good Glavin!!!!! With the reasoning and the wit and the Ooooooobi-Wan is a dumbass theory; I'd say this is a good point :)

I’m gonna be a father! - ETA December 24th 2017

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George is so determined to paint the Jedi as being dumb he actually goes to great pains to show that even a child could figure out the mystery and the Jedi can't.

That really needs a rethink.

 

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that is what it would have looked like

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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I agree. Kind of. Still, cutting it makes it an even less gratifying movie to watch. What's worse - stupidity, or no sense of visual-narrative pleasure WHATSOEVER?

That's not a rhetorical question. I'm honestly not sure. And it's a question you rarely have to ask. If a film is truly bad, you never really ask that question - you file the film under "'F' for 'Forget it'", to quote the great Dale Cooper. But Star Wars is different, mostly thanks to brilliant The Empire Strikes Back. You want to save it because you care about the story despite the awfulness of parts of it.

AotC as is makes the downfall of the Jedi seem not only inevitable given their arrogant and servile nature - their subservience almost smells of decadence in the classical sense; fall of the Roman empire-esque as it is - but also you're left with no real sense of loss. They're bloody THICK, meaning they deserve it.

The galacto-political ramifications of this bloody thick-ness are probably the most subtle and interesting thing about the films. Still, I'm not sure that's the impression George Lucas wanted my mind to be left with after watching the prequels. In fact, if you asked him why Obi-Wan was so stupid in AotC, I think he would respond with a resounding "Huh?".

Where am I going? I have no idea. Maybe that if we want to make the Jedi more intelligent, we might have to rewrite and remake all the prequels, because if you take out the Space Detective, there's nothing left that's actually enjoyable.

Or is there any way of inserting something better about Obi-Wan having reason to believe that clones might be loyal to their (new) master, despite the actual intent of their breeding? If he has a REASON to believe this, it might lessen the bloody thick-ness. The betrayal comes as no surprise to anyone apart from the Jedi. Narratively, that stinks to high heaven.

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With my edit, there's no Dex's diner scene, no library scene and no youngling scene.

Instead, he goes straight with the poison dart to the analysis archives (deleted scene), where a redubbed droid tells him that there are trace amounts of a mineral that's only found in one system...

Then we have the other deleted scene where Mace sees Obi Wan to the landing pad. Hopefully I can find some dialogue to dub over the part where the camera is behind them both, where they discuss the clone army being there.

Obi wan really doesn't need 3 scenes where he still can't figure out where the dart came from or how to find kamino. Not to mention that Kamino and the army being a secret go nowhere.

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Bingowings said:

George is so determined to paint the Jedi as being dumb he actually goes to great pains to show that even a child could figure out the mystery and the Jedi can't.

That really needs a rethink.

 

 

That's not the main problem for me. A child might think out of the proverbial box, etc. The real problem shows up when the Jedi think they can basically take over a clone army with no one caring about it, with no questions asked, and just accepting on blind faith that they have no ulterior motive.

The former is being a little slow - even good detectives can be a little slow every once in a while. The latter is letting your world go to pieces because you're a bloody idiot.

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Obi wan really doesn't need 3 scenes where he still can't figure out where the dart came from or how to find kamino. Not to mention that Kamino and the army being a secret go nowhere.

He's following a trail. Moronic though it may be, it's still in the classicist mystery storytelling mode. The last sentence I of course agree with. Why would you take over a secret army without asking any questions.

If a free lunch doesn't even exist, why would a free secret army exist? :)

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EyeShotFirst said:

that is what it would have looked like

Awesome :)

Look at this -

Sorry about the saber and how it's shaped - it's from a comic book or novel.

I’m gonna be a father! - ETA December 24th 2017

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I can see how he may look stupid, but this is where I might actually think it was ok. Simply based on he and Yoda's conversation later. He didn't think it was erased from the archives because he believed it to be impossible. And it may not have been so much that Obi-wan didn't think of it, but that Yoda wanted to give one of younglings a stab at real jedi investigation work. But Obi-wan to me doesn't seriously consider the erasing of the archives until Yoda explains to him that only a Jedi could have done that. Maybe that information wasn't available to Obi-wan yet... Anyway, maybe a stretch, but I can rationalize it. Wish I could the rest of the movie!

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Count Qui-Gon wouldn't have a red sabre if he wasn't a Sith Lord, mute point anyways seeing as there is no way of replacing Christopher Lee with Liam Neeson.

The nearest I think we can get around this is by adding Dooku to TPM and having his formation of the Seperatist movement a reaction to the sort of narrow thinking that could get Qui-Gon killed and allow a Sith Lord to take over the government.

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I agree Mrbenja, it can be rationalised. It's not great, but it's feasible. And again, shame about the rest of the movie.

Just going back a few posts:

theslime:

But Star Wars is different, mostly thanks to brilliant The Empire Strikes Back.

 

Why is Star Wars different? Yes, the first two movies are very good, but they're not the only great movies ever made. I think our propensity to want to correct or save these movies, predominantly the prequels of course, comes from our own inability or unwillingness to distance ourselves from the original trilogy sufficiently to be able to disregard the prequels as simply badly written and directed (and acted, and...)  I don't really care enough about the prequels enough to bother fixing them. Either that, or I just think they're so incredibly misconceived that they are literally beyond salvaging. Whatever it is, I don't see Star Wars as being different, despite the immense impact the OT had on my childhood back then. If they're bad, they're bad.

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If bad was bad, very few of the myriad fanedits would even exist.

Star Wars is different because a lot of people like the old ones enough to go to a lot of trouble to save the new ones. I'm not really one of them. I'm a narratologist. I'm basically all talk.

But fanedits exist. They're proof that people care. They care a lot, actually. Your personal opinion doesn't really factor in that much. I'm talking about a global phenomenon.

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Ok, back on topic.... So can we really get the Tantive IV on Dagobah in a convincing way?

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mrbenja0618 said:

Ok, back on topic.... So can we really get the Tantive IV on Dagobah in a convincing way?

Yoda's landing on Dagobah (a deleted scene from ROTS) can be used, though it can be tweaked and the Tantive IV can then be inserted into the shot.

I’m gonna be a father! - ETA December 24th 2017

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Darth Chronus said:
mrbenja0618 said:

Ok, back on topic.... So can we really get the Tantive IV on Dagobah in a convincing way?

Yoda's landing on Dagobah (a deleted scene from ROTS) can be used, though it can be tweaked and the Tantive IV can then be inserted into the shot.

 

Yeah, I can see how it might work... And I've seen some mock videos, but nothing yet that convinced me that it could be done well. I just want to see it. =)   If I had time, i'd try it myself, but I don't at the moment.

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Sure, the best way would be to build models and film them but my mockup was pulled from the DVD, using the HD broadcast may yield better results without the need to film new footage.

There is nothing in terms of story getting in the way.

My favorate solution is to have Padme's ship dock with the Tantive, have the ship land, Padme go into labour on the ship, Yoda to step out on the surface (possibly being greeted by a non-speaking Qui-Gon ghost) and the Tantive leaves him there.

Dave's video mockup has a slightly different take with the Tantive landing, waiting for Padme's ship which also lands.

I'm keen to trim as many landing sequences as possible, it became almost a sickness in the PT. 

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Hmmm....Yeah... Landings a plenty in the prequels.... Well, i'll try this at some point, but it will be some time. Just too many coals in the fire at the moment.

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I really want the Tantive to be on Dagobah when Padme gives birth, but I don't want it to be obvious to first time watchers that that's what she's doing. Maybe I'm asking for a lot, but I'm hoping for a solution where it'll be clear to those who know about Luke and Leia being Vader's kid, but not to first time viewers.

If we can not see the birth but instead hear Padme's screams, and then cobble together a line like "they should be seperated" then I think it could work.

For first time viewers, "they" would mean Anakin and Padme. For those who knew she gave birth, it would be clear what "they" meant.

 

Edit: Just checked. Yoda says "Split up, they should be". I don't think this is ambiguous enough as it is to make new audiences think it refers to Anakin and Padme, but it's something to work with.

Just a rough idea:

Cut to outside the Tantive on the surface of Dagobah.
Padme screaming.
Padme: Obi Wan, there is still good in him. etc
Yoda: Split up they should be. Hidden. Safe.
Senator Organa: We will take her. (or something similiar)
Wipe to next scene.

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Is there any feasable way to rearrange a lot (not all) of Yoda's lines so he isn't backwards-talking 99% of the time? It's a little over the top in these.

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brash_stryker said:

I really want the Tantive to be on Dagobah when Padme gives birth, but I don't want it to be obvious to first time watchers that that's what she's doing. Maybe I'm asking for a lot, but I'm hoping for a solution where it'll be clear to those who know about Luke and Leia being Vader's kid, but not to first time viewers.

If we can not see the birth but instead hear Padme's screams, and then cobble together a line like "they should be seperated" then I think it could work.

For first time viewers, "they" would mean Anakin and Padme. For those who knew she gave birth, it would be clear what "they" meant.

 

Edit: Just checked. Yoda says "Split up, they should be". I don't think this is ambiguous enough as it is to make new audiences think it refers to Anakin and Padme, but it's something to work with.

Just a rough idea:

Cut to outside the Tantive on the surface of Dagobah.
Padme screaming.
Padme: Obi Wan, there is still good in him. etc
Yoda: Split up they should be. Hidden. Safe.
Senator Organa: We will take her. (or something similiar)
Wipe to next scene.

 

All those the pieces of dialogue would work for what you're suggesting....However, be careful, as many of these scenes have different music cues in the background.. That's the only thing I can think of that would make the cutting obvious. I don't have the movie in front of me, so I don't recall what cues are playing, if any.... But the prequels are music heavy so the odds are there is music in the background.

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qxx said:

Is there any feasable way to rearrange a lot (not all) of Yoda's lines so he isn't backwards-talking 99% of the time? It's a little over the top in these.

This.  It's like Frank Oz started doing a parody of Yoda and no one told him to stop.  Some people assumed that Yoda's backwards talking was due to being so old and in exile alone, but it turns out that it actually drove him saner!

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