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A theory on ESB and the SW movies made after.

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OK, this is just my theory, so I welcome any disagreements or agreements:) 

Many here (not all, I am generalizing), wonder why SW & ESB stick out as such classics and wonder why ROTJ & the PT couldn't harken back to the quality of those two movies.  Here is my theory:

Star Wars '77 is just a simple good vs evil story that is essentially told through the hero. It is a self contained movie, and  it is film 101 at its best.

ESB is a brand new start to the series, and really tells a whole NEW story, essentially with the same characters we fell in love with.  Now the movie isn't just about good vs evil, but about father vs son, and by doing this Lucas can take the movie WHEREVER he wants to go.  He doesn't have to tie up any loose ends, isn't held down to saying what happened to this guy and that guy, the movie just moves for 2 hours and this is the NEW story, as Episode IV was just a prologue.

ROTJ and the PT are essentially tied down now by all the plot points that have to be settled because of ESB.  In ROTJ, we have to have closure if this is the last movie, we have to see what happened to Yoda, we have to see what happens to Vader, we have to have Luke find out who this 'other' is.  Great plot points, but the plot points essentially dictate the story, rather then in ESB, the story dictates the plot points.

Lucas is even more tied down in the PT as he has to tell the WHOLE backstory.  He has to follow a plotline and address many of the plot points in the OT to keep the story linear.  He can't go from point A to point C like he did in ESB, he has to go from point A to point B and finally to point C, and that is why the last hour of ROTS is essentially a paint by numbers greatest hits. 

Just my theory, discuss!

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Overall I think the prequels could have been better if the story wasnt just some chopped up bullshit. Yes it would have had to be dedicated to the foundation ESB set up, but it could have been told better. In the end all we got was a pissed off teenager.

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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Nah.  ROTJ suffered because after Gary Kurtz left (was fired?) Lucas arbitrarily decided to throw out the outline that had been written for ROTJ when they wrote the outline for ESB (I *think* the original ESB/ROTJ outline was written as one long outline, and split in two at the best "cliffhanger moment," - then "part 1," or ESB, was written, with the second half to be written later).  I think he did this because he hated ESB (he's gone on record as saying that ESB is his least favorite Star Wars film).

Then Lucas made up an entirely new outline, which would tie up all the loose ends that were originally meant to be left hanging for the "sequel trilogy."  Problem was, he had too many loose ends to tie up satisfactorily in a 2-hour film, so he forced several contrivances (*cough*Leia as Luke's sister*cough*) in order to make it work.

So if the original outline had been written as a script, Leia would not have been Luke's sister, and ROTJ would have ended in such a way that it was a satisfying ending to the Luke-vs-Vader saga.  The sequel trilogy would have seen Luke becoming a full-fledged Jedi (possibly training other Jedi) and searching for his sister, set against the backdrop of Luke vs the Emperor.  while the Rebel Alliance tries to end the Empire once and for all while establishing its new Republic.

Of course, since the original outline has never been released (to my knowledge), that's all just conjecture on my part, based in part on facts.

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I would die to see that release. Gary Kurtz was really the one who filtered out george lucas' bad ideas. Empire is what I would call the most believable in the saga, George saying it wasn't is pure garbage. I could only imagine what ROTJ would have been like if what chainsaw stated ^. It would have been so neat to see a mad vader NO EWOKS. A humongous battle of two angry people. Then the sequels would have been even better. For some reason we didn't get enough star wars. We just got 4 other movies that had star wars  in the title. Not bashing on the prequels too much I did enjoy them and still enjoy them. But they just did not have the vibe that the OT did. We were given characters we loved to death. The prequels had only 2 likeable characters Darth and Obi wan. Obi wan being the only wan (lol one) that was like the OT one
I am sorry to you yoda fans but Frank Oz's magic is from under the puppet not behind a microphone.

Overall Rotj to Rots are FOR THE KIDS not bashing on kids but come on kids arent retarded. I loved the OT when I was tiny. Rick Mcallum is not the problem he just wasn't the solution that Kurtz was (the solution to georges shenanigans LOL)

So the film ROTJ is to blame for it all. It was a lighthearted movie. I like it as a stand alone film as I do the prequels BUT IT IS NOT STAR WARS.

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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CO said:

OK, this is just my theory, so I welcome any disagreements or agreements:) 

Many here (not all, I am generalizing), wonder why SW & ESB stick out as such classics and wonder why ROTJ & the PT couldn't harken back to the quality of those two movies.  Here is my theory:

Star Wars '77 is just a simple good vs evil story that is essentially told through the hero. It is a self contained movie, and  it is film 101 at its best.

ESB is a brand new start to the series, and really tells a whole NEW story, essentially with the same characters we fell in love with.  Now the movie isn't just about good vs evil, but about father vs son, and by doing this Lucas can take the movie WHEREVER he wants to go.  He doesn't have to tie up any loose ends, isn't held down to saying what happened to this guy and that guy, the movie just moves for 2 hours and this is the NEW story, as Episode IV was just a prologue.

ROTJ and the PT are essentially tied down now by all the plot points that have to be settled because of ESB.  In ROTJ, we have to have closure if this is the last movie, we have to see what happened to Yoda, we have to see what happens to Vader, we have to have Luke find out who this 'other' is.  Great plot points, but the plot points essentially dictate the story, rather then in ESB, the story dictates the plot points.

Lucas is even more tied down in the PT as he has to tell the WHOLE backstory.  He has to follow a plotline and address many of the plot points in the OT to keep the story linear.  He can't go from point A to point C like he did in ESB, he has to go from point A to point B and finally to point C, and that is why the last hour of ROTS is essentially a paint by numbers greatest hits. 

Just my theory, discuss!

Very good theory CO--I agree. Part of what often makes earlier entries better is that they aren't constrained in any sense, they can make whatever is best for the characters and story. As you reach the end of the story, you can't take it anywhere, you are up against a wall, and you have to deal with all the stuff that has gotten you there, shackled down by the weight of the past films. Because of this, you sometimes get pigeonholed.

If you plan things out in advance enough, you can often avoid it. Because when you work out an outline for the overall piece, you will realise, damn this doesn't work very well because I'm stuck here, that means I have to change the middle part to go along a different path, or else set things up differently so this still works.

The problem is that the OT was not planned out like this, and much of what was got changed around significantly. As a result, the free-wheeling creativity of the first films ran into a brick wall of resolution in the final chapter. It also doesn't help that Lucas isn't the best writer--a lot of these problems could have been handled more smoothly with a better writer at the helm. But the core issue would still be there, mind you. Good observation.

 

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http://movies.ign.com/articles/376/376873p2.html

here this was posted way back when. This is what kurtz has to say about the prequels.

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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I could not disagree more on the hatred leveled at Return of the Jedi.

It was the last star wars film made with feeling, the last one with any magic to it.  The last one made without shitty lame brain 90% cgi, and the last one to be edited by Marcia Lucas.

It might not be that great as a stand alone but as a third film that is supposed to tie up a series i think it works rather well.  Despite the now continuous fanboy backlash against the ewoks and the them having a second death star.

I still wonder if hatred of jedi is popular because it was started by Kevin Smith and now everyone just parrots whatever he or his films had to say.

Leia being the sister never bothered me in fact that is one of the points i like, just like vader being luke's father.  I also like that han was not just killed off to make it more edgy, which is a lame point of mordernism making everything dark and sinister.

Lumping it in with the phantom menace or its sequels you can do based on your own opinion, in my own that is crazy. 

George was not a cynic when he made return of the jedi.  Jedi while imperfect shows a lot of heart.

To me star wars would be a perfect 6 film saga if lucas only followed the original plan for the prequels.  With the only change necessary of having Vader and Anakin One and the same and not separate characters.

He could have done a different sequel trilogy than original intended as well with the way jedi was filmed.

Any episode 7 would start out with Luke as a Jedi master rebuilding the order, Leia and Han Married.  And the rebels set up the new republic while fighting the imperial remnant.  With the possibility of sith being out there and still dangerous or that anyone Luke took on as a student might go to the dark side.

Basically all the points covered by the Zahn trilogy.  Because someone else did it already even though not Lucas official canon, he feels like he can be lazy and not do those stories because someone else has.

Or perhaps the time passed long ago in the 1980's.  It could also be argued Lucas would not do those movies because fans would claim he was just copying Timothy Zahn.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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I don't know, ROTJ lacks the feeling of ANH to me, it often feels lazy, stilted and operating on auto-pilot. The plot is tired, the dialog is tired and the actors often look like they would rather be doing something else; the chemistry was lost. I think the big difference is that it was still featuring the same people we were already in love with (Luke/Hamill, Han/Ford, etc) and had a story with enough action, effects and occassionally good scenes (the throne room) and occassionally good dialog (Lawrence Kasdan) to get by. But it's basically a proto-prequel, IMO, when I allow myself to step back from my own nostalgia and look at it more objectively. It's definitely better than a prequel, but as I said for me this is mainly because I cared already about Luke and Han, but Anakin and Padme had to earn my love.

Personally, I find that TPM has the same combination of magic imagination and bored acting that ROTJ does.

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Skyjedi, I don't *hate* ROTJ - in fact, zombie pretty much hit the nail on the head.  I just think Lucas overreacted after he was upset with how ESB turned out, and went too far in the other direction.  And since Gary Kurtz wasn't around to say "Uh, George, that's a bad idea," Lucas just kept drifting farther and farther in the wrong direction.

ROTJ just always feels ... off to me.  Plus I absolutely loathe the Leia/Luke sibling thing.  Worst.  Decision.  Ever.

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I wonder if the negative backlash Lucas received over the Phantom Menace effected how clones and sith turned out.  If so that is rather sad.

The prequels problem is that almost all of it is filler and no story up until the very end of revenge of the sith.

There are a lot of action sequences and cgi padding it out and and confusing politics.  No clear heroes and villains, basically it betrayed the basic concept of the originals being so clear cut black and white and right and wrong.  While at the end of sith we are served up a dish of postmodern bullshit moral relativism and making the jedi more like the sith , lots more shades of grey to the prequels.

Plus for Anakin to fall from grace, there has to be grace to fall from.  He has to start out as a good man and be slowly seduced to evil.  Biggest failing of the prequels.  Anakin's slow turn became a turn on a dime, and the reasoning made zero sense.

He starts out a jerk and an asshole in Episode II, and becomes more in III leading to more murders.  Though it started with non pre meditated killing of sand people in anger, to his first real murder dooku to killing younglings.

He is never shown as kind and loving.  Caring of his fellow man, or even caring unselfishly for his wife.  Every single thing he does is out of selfish motivations.  A clear and easy way to see he never followed the jedi creed and obi wan and the counsel just pretended not to notice because he was some kind of messiah so the rules did'nt apply to him.

So in the end Return of the Jedi and the original trilogy is ruined because there never was any good in anakin for luke to redeem, lazy poor and pathetic writing.  For the life of me i don't know why Lucas or one of his employees could not sit down watch the original movies and take some notes. 

The story of the original trilogy hinged on Luke betting it all that there was still good in his father and the redemption.

The prequels hinged on making anakin sympathetic and his turn believable.

Now both ends that tie the two trilogies together are made undone by lazy ass writing on episode III.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Sky, here is my take on Jedi.

As a kid, I loved the movie, as I saw it in '83 as a 10 year old.  But in the same respect, I did not like ESB when I saw it in '80, much too dark for me.  I remember arguing with my brother, "The damn Yoda parts are so BORING!!!!"  "And whats with the ending, and the bad guys losing!"

Fast Foward years later, the tide starts turning.  I finally get the Trilogy in HighSchool and get to rewatch the movies whenever I want for the first time in my life.

StarWars - Still love it like I did in 1977, same magic, favorite movie of alltime.

Empire- Damn, this movie is fucking great, what was I thinking?  The Yoda parts kick ass, and I understand the cave!  The last 40 minutes could be some of the greatest ever put on screen for a film.

Jedi - Ok, I still enjoy it, but it is lacking that 'it', it is lacking that magic that pervades Star Wars and Empire.  Han Solo seems a bit off, the jabba scenes go on way too long, the Ewoks really hurt the tone of the movie, can anyone imagine the ewoks in Empire?  The ending is great, but the movie falls to #3, while Empire gets pushed to #2.

My point?  In one respect, I noticed the flaws in Jedi that I didn't see as a kid, but Empire also gets elevated as I get older too, as what I thought was dull or boring as a kid, is fucking awesome when I got older.  Jedi and Empire went different ways for alot of SW fans, nothing more nothing less.

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For Luca$h, ESB is the worst thing that ever happened to Star Wars:

1. It was made by a much better director than he is. It had greater depth and atmosphere and better performances than he could ever have achieved, as we can see from the PT.

2. It took Star Wars in an aesthetic direction he had never intended it to go, as we can see from the PT. He wanted to make a bigger, better equivalent of the sci-fi serials he used to love as a kid, not a deep, atmospheric space opera (a term which may never have been attached to Star Wars before ESB).

Unfortunately for Luca$h, people loved it and it's quality has ensured it's lasting appeal and continuing increase in respect. I sincerely believe that people, while they may love SW77 more, will usually pick ESB as the best of all the movies.

That must piss Luca$h off more than anything else, I think. It's the one he had the least control over, after all. From which we must conclude that Luca$h is not, in fact, the great auteur he would like us all to think he is. For me, SW77 is not a well directed film. It's success as a movie comes from the exciting production design, daring casting, tight editing, ground-breaking audio and visual effects and it's marvellous, Wagnerian score.

This is why it makes me so angry that Luca$h feels he has the right to tinker with the films the way he has. As far as I'm concerned, he played a very small part in making them as special as they were. I think he should have much greater respect for the work of the people who made SW77 a success and stop filling the movie full of added junk.

Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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"Luca$h" ?

I like to call him "Luckass".

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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auraloffalwaffle said:

For me, SW77 is not a well directed film.

It's success as a movie comes from the exciting production design, daring casting, tight editing, ground-breaking audio and visual effects and it's marvellous, Wagnerian score.

I think most of the power behind the dialogue and quips was the work he seeded in finding an ensemble that resonated:

"Longer Mark Hamill Star Wars Audition"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSjP2GBTr9U

"Longer Carrie Fisher Star Wars Audition"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCXrGuLix7M&

Once the casting was assured with quality performers, he didn't really _have_ to direct them but rather let them loose inside the candy store of the set design, matte paintings, props, costumes, make-up, and play back monitors if they had them.

I cannot imagine that the roles of young man Anakin and Padme were in any way given such an exhaustive match up. Because of the scarcity of set design and props, only actors with significant stage experience could hope to last long against the green Death Screen, the technological terror Lucas constructed to shock and awe audiences with his Saturday serial imagination.

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Hernalt said:

Once the casting was assured with quality performers, he didn't really _have_ to direct them but rather let them loose inside the candy store of the set design, matte paintings, props, costumes, make-up, and play back monitors if they had them.

 

I take your point but I would say in return that there is a very noticeable difference between the performances the main actors achieved in SW77 and ESB. I think they all performed to a much higher standard in ESB and achieved much greater characterisations than in SW77. I would most definitely point to the change in director as one of the main factors causing that difference, another being a better script.

Also worth noting in SW77 is the difference between the quality of performance given by the likes of Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing as compared to the main actors - Guinness & Cushing are the sort of highly gifted and experienced actors who can give a polished performance no matter what. Case in point: compare the main actors' delivery of the dialogue with that of Guinness & Cushing - Harrison Ford famously said "you can write this shit but you can't say it" - Guinness & Cushing have no problems and the lines sound wonderful.

My point is that only the very best actors in the cast of SW77 could get past Luca$h's poor direction entirely. The main 3, Hamill, Fisher & Ford, could not and only gave the best they could give in ESB when given good direction.

Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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The two audition links supply evidence for the argument that the original actors, without any set design, props, costumes, matte back drops, and only what appears to be either a teleprompter or cue cards (or excellent memory), are sufficient in innate talent to supply more soul and earnestness to the dialogue than Lloyd, Christiansen and Portman can do under nearly the same circumstances. Under the worst performance conditions of the prequels, the prequel actors had at most a costume, some immediately nearby set design, maybe a prop. In their favor, they had some handicap of little preparation time, but it could not have been less than what the scores of actors applying for the parts received in '75 or '76. I would rather watch those two auditions with some random CGI blaster shots than sit through the worst of AOTC, which includes a lot of it.

auraloffalwaffle, I agree with your post. There's a slight increase in performance from ANH to ESB and a very noticeable decrease in performance from ESB to ROTJ. My tolerance allows me to let ROTJ remain in the fold rather than excommunicate it to the darkness, and to merely cringe in pain at some of the scenes, laugh with a release of endorphins, and move on.

Zombie, I owe you a debt of gratitude for clearing up a lot of things with "Secret History". It demonstrates how lightning struck twice, how the single-cell organism evolved into and was subsumed within the two-celled organism, how that new life-form was subsumed into a three-celled life-form, how an explosion of neurons or organs were whittled down and consolidated into fewer and stronger or at least expedient, and how revisionism seeks to make the ultimate adaptation - the effacement of the scaffolding supporting the ediface as happy accident is molded into epic intention. It's almost the exact same argument as occurs between evolution and intelligent design. Although your conclusions are highly forgiving (an understandable necessity for being published), your work allows me to see Lucas himself as the tragedy that he projects and banishes into Vader. The upshot of this is that it takes pressure off the actual movies for delivering "Tragedy" of any Shakespearean standard. The real story - that of Citizen Lucas - exists behind the movies and not in the movies.

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"Don't worry about me! I'm George Lucas!! DON'T WORRY ABOUT ME!!!"

Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!