Indy BluRay pushed off til 2010, what does that mean for SW? — Page 4

DarkFather said:

Gaffer Tape said:

But... Avatar's not anime...

 

Star Trek isn't science fiction.

o_O

Yeah... I don't get the comparison...

You said Avatar wasn't anime, when it clearly is, so I jokingly said Star Trek isn't science fiction, when it clearly is. Makes sense unless you were talking about Cameron's "Avatar."

So nevermind.

skyjedi2005 said:

Avatar the last airbender is so incredibly superior to the clone wars that i am suprised filoni had anything to do with airbender.

Most of season 1 of clone wars was okay but the ending with this Cad Bane boba fett ripoff with a bad accent totally changed my opinion on tuning in for season 2.

 

It was nice to read matt lanter saying he and his costar were trying to match Han Solo and Princess Leia of the originals than the prequels.

Still clone wars might be a slight improvement over the prequels, but in my opinion Lucas has way too much of a hand in things and way too much control.  I liked the genddy series because he stepped backed and allowed them to do their own thing, funny how that dvd is now permanently out of print because genndy did something Kershner did better star wars than george lucas, which is not allowed.

I really hope Mr Lucas daughter turns out a better writer than he is, because if not the future of clone wars is indeed very grim.

 

There is not a thing that cannot be destroyed to fit the prequels anymore.   They ruined the EU novels, the games etc.

To me i almost put the cut off point for star wars in 1996, before the laughably bad shadows of the empire and the special editions, and before the ruination of star wars in 1999.  1999 was also the year of vector prime when they destroyed the star wars EU in the first book by Killing Chewbacca.

 

There has been some good star wars fiction since then. I liked Shatter point, and revenge of the sith by stover, and dark lord.

In fact a lot of the tie in writers for the EU write so much better than Lucas it is almost a shame they were writing for the EU universe that does not exist as far as Lucas is concerned.

 

 

To this day i don't understand how a self described terrible writer allowed himself to write the 3 screenplays to the prequels.  The same guy who says he hates character and plot and likes to do purely visual films.

The strength of the prequels was in the visuals, but the non devloped characters and non existant plot made me not care in the end.  Six Hours of explosions, lasersword duels and cgi do not a good human story make.

I don't hate the prequels i just wish the characters were more fully developed than cardboard cutout archetypes.

They tried adding a soul to the visuals by having willaims compose some wonderful music.  But Even he this time could not save the films. 

I wish the effects were secondary to the human story.  But Lucas made the focus on what he considers his strongest abilties. I can only blame him for not hiring a different director for both attack of the clones and revenge of the sith and some other writers to help flesh out the skeleton plot.

To me you have only half a movie with the prequels, you have the effects music and sound effects, but the actors are either under used or ill used.  The human story of the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker the greatest jedi of his generation takes a back seat to the action.

Lucas had some truly great and epic ideas to use.  A lot of them were under used or underplayed or left in tne background or up to the tie in fiction writers to flesh out. 

He talked about the story of faust and miltons paradise lost on the 60 minutes interview, and when i saw revenge of the sith i missed the echo of these great literary works.  Because the turn was botched and made zero logical sense.  

I also wish a female writer could have helped Lucas on clones and sith to flesh out the character of padme, in clones and sith her character is ruined as much as anakins is.  I much prefer the phantom menace which at last focused on the characters.  What happened in 2 and 3, did lucas forget or something?

I agree that Lucas had great ideas. I once called him an "idea machine"... he's good throwing cool ideas onto the table, but when it comes to delivering it all on screen, he faulters very badly. When it came to the prequels, I think he should have left the writing and directing to more competent hands, while he acted as just a producer and consultant, which he would have excelled at.

Dark Father... anime always comes from Japan.  Avatar comes from the US.  I don't know exactly WHERE it's animated (many shows are outsourced to places like Taiwan or Kroea), but it doesn't come from any Japanese source.  Avatar obviously borrows from the style, but it's techincally not "anime".

Sorry, fanwank mode.

Anime is a style. I've never, ever heard that it has to be produced in Japan. Avatar so closely follows the style that in my mind, it falls under that category.

Also. Anime originated from American works. The big eyes came from Bambi and Mickey Mouse, and the unrealistic head set on a realistic body came from Betty Boop. So it isn't some ancient, sacred art style that only the Japanese are savvy to. America had a huge influence over it. Yes. We sloppy, inferior, useless, overweight, greedy Americans blew our load into the oh-so-superior Japanese creative fuck-caverns.

Here's your ancient, sacred art form passed down from generation to generation:

Fair enough.  One of the reasons I associate anime with Japan is because it was previously referred to as Japanimation.

Not gonna kill you over your opinion, actually makes quite a lot of sense.

Thank you for being reasonable, bkev.

Anime is this:

Not this:

MONK: "I've meditated and trained for years. Soon, I will master the art of drawing the great anime. Hallowed be anime's name."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime

"Anime is animation originating in Japan."  That's what it means.  Well, unless, of course, you refer to the original Japanese definition, which is simply an abbreviation of the American word "animation."  So it's either Japanese animation or any animation.  If you're referring to Avatar as simply being "animation," then, yes, I will have to concede that.  But anime is certainly not a style, otherwise Dragon Ball and Cowboy Bebop would have similar aesthetics, and they don't in the least.

I'll also concede the point that Avatar (and a lot of other American shows) are actually outsourced to mainland Asian countries, as is a lot of anime.  So, technically, you can say that a lot of these shows are animated by the same companies, but, again, I doubt anyone would call The Real Ghostbusters an anime, even though a lot of it was animated in the same or near locations as Dragon Ball.

So, yeah, Avatar, being a Nickelodeon cartoon, is not anime.  ^_^

o support what Gaffer says, here's one example of the various styles of anime.

Yes, there's the cutesy Diseny-inspired big eyes (Lucky Star comes to mind as pictured), but there is so much more to anime.

Gaffer Tape said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime

"Anime is animation originating in Japan."  That's what it means.  Well, unless, of course, you refer to the original Japanese definition, which is simply an abbreviation of the American word "animation."  So it's either Japanese animation or any animation.  If you're referring to Avatar as simply being "animation," then, yes, I will have to concede that.  But anime is certainly not a style, otherwise Dragon Ball and Cowboy Bebop would have similar aesthetics, and they don't in the least.

I'll also concede the point that Avatar (and a lot of other American shows) are actually outsourced to mainland Asian countries, as is a lot of anime.  So, technically, you can say that a lot of these shows are animated by the same companies, but, again, I doubt anyone would call The Real Ghostbusters an anime, even though a lot of it was animated in the same or near locations as Dragon Ball.

So, yeah, Avatar, being a Nickelodeon cartoon, is not anime.  ^_^

You want to use Wikipedia as gospel, or do you want the truth? What is your response to my actual post?

But anime is certainly not a style, otherwise Dragon Ball and Cowboy Bebop would have similar aesthetics, and they don't in the least.

Gaffer. What are you talking about.

Look at the noses of Faye and Edward. Look at their expressions.

Cowboy Bebop and Dragonball Z differ slightly in their styles, but they follow the same general style. I mean, it's not even matter of opinion.

Japan animation usual is animated less than American counterparts. 

the budget style of limited animation is well known.

Akira was probably the first feature to try and actually do 24 frames per second.

Disney was known for their painstaking hand rendering of animated films.

A lot of anime is almost manga on the screen.  A lot of it is static sometimes with moving backgrounds and the characters move pretty stilted because of the limits of the technique.  Not all anime is as lush and beautifully created as miyazaki or ghibli films.

Considering that almost all american animation and japan animation as well as the outsourced stuff is really just computer rendered there is almost no difference anymore except in quality and style.

There is now American Anime, borrowing the style of the japan toons.  Being going on for years and years.

Avatar is one of the shows produced that remind people of other such shows, people might be reminded of naruto or dragonball because of the quote "eastern flavor" of the show, but the characters as far as i can remember where not in an exagerrated manga/comic book style as dragon ball was.

Plus there has been anime in the us for a long time except stuff was cut censored or redited so kids probably did not know the origins of the cartoons they watched.

Robotech is a bunch of unrelated shows tied together, the most famous used of course being Macross.

Voltron was an anime as well.

Thundercats and transformers i believe were also animated co productions of us and japan companies.

But to me the old transformers show despite being written by Americans and mostly animated by americans was based on a japanese toyline, and betrays the anime influence at least to me.

in the 80's movie the anime style is even more pronounced.  I wonder just how much of the movie was animated by the japanese.

I also believe some of the rank bass production of the return of the king was made in japan, there is a slight japanese feel to some of the animation.  If i remember the credits claimed american, french and japan animators.

The same company who did thundercats who probably outsourced a good deal of the animation to the japanese.

Now a lot of anime is no longer even made in japan.  Even they outsource.  I believe Singapore is where a lot of the stuff goes.

Many industrys have been hurt by the wordwide recession, but anime which was already in trouble has a but been crippled here in the us, and is not doing too much better in japan where they also have had a huge economic downturn.

If not for Miyazakis last film being the highest grossing film in japan history this era would be pretty bleak for japan animation.

DarkFather said:

You want to use Wikipedia as gospel, or do you want the truth? What is your response to my actual post?

But anime is certainly not a style, otherwise Dragon Ball and Cowboy Bebop would have similar aesthetics, and they don't in the least.

Gaffer. What are you talking about.

Look at the noses of Faye and Edward. Look at their expressions.

Cowboy Bebop and Dragonball Z differ slightly in their styles, but they follow the same general style. I mean, it's not even matter of opinion.

I wasn't using Wikipedia as gospel.  I was using it to support my statement.  I quoted exactly one sentence from the article.  And as far as I can see, there isn't an inaccuracy in the article.  Meanwhile, this is the first time I've ever heard of anime as being referred to a particular style of animation, and you haven't presented any evidence to back up that claim.

And, really?  Noses?  We're going to argue animation styles based on noses?  You've gotta give me something here.  I conceded to you in at least a couple of different ways based on the different established definitions of the word anime.  I'm pretty sure I responded directly to your post.  Now it's your turn, DF.  I will concede one more thing to you again.  It's possible that DB and CB follow the same general style.  Maybe you're seeing something I don't.  But that's subjective, so, yes, it very much is a matter of opinion.  You could be broader and say that all hand-drawn animation uses the same general style in order to craft people and scenery. 

Don't know what else to say, really.  That is what anime is.  And based on those parameters, I've conceded how Avatar might (and one of those concessions was a stretch) be considered to fall under the definitions of anime, and it certainly does emulate some of the stylistic conventions common to Japanese animation, but since anime is defined in this country as the animated output originating from and intended for a specific country (Japan), Avatar does not fall into that category.

You're intentionally being difficult with me. Maybe six months ago, I would have seen this debate through, but I can now detect lost causes.

I hope we can continue getting along around the forum. Peace.

Conceding the ways in which you would be right is being difficult?  Huh.  Never knew that.  Well, thought I was having another fun debate with you.  Obviously you don't see it that way.  You know I have a high degree of comeraderie for you, so don't take a debate the wrong way.  We're all friends here.

DarkFather said:

You're intentionally being difficult with me. Maybe six months ago, I would have seen this debate through, but I can now detect lost causes.

I hope we can continue getting along around the forum. Peace.

I reassure you DF, Gaffer is one of the last people on this forum to ever be difficult with anyone. He is not afraid to admit when he is wrong, and can be a very humble fellow. He is definitely one of the few people you can have a good conversation with on these forums without it devolving into absurdity due to disagreements.

From reading his posts over the years, it is plain to see he is a real fan of anime (or at least certain anime). I think it is safe to say that in this particular discussion, rather than simply trying to be difficult as some tards on the internet seem to get off on, he was making a sincere case from the perspective of a true fan of anime.

You're smart enough to concede any point that doesn't compromise your stance in any way. As in, you conceding that Avatar is anime in the sense that it's "animation", while knowing full well I was referring to it as a certain Japanese style of animation. And heck, if you can't see the striking similarities between the art of Dragonball Z and Cowboy Bebop, I can't make you.

Heh, I was going to leave this alone, but I have to say I have wonderfully amusing mental images of the process in which an American brewery makes a bear at all, let alone one inspired by European beer.

Gaffer Tape said:

I have wonderfully amusing mental images of the process in which an American brewery makes a bear at all, let alone one inspired by European beer.

Oops. Did I misspell it? I don't even know, I deleted that section of my post, having written it before reading the last few posts and realizing the precarious ledge this discussion was heading towards. That is a very striking mental image. A European beer inspired American made bear. I think I am going to work the kinks out of this one and make a pitch to adult swim, seems like the kind of thing they'd pick up.

DarkFather said:

You're smart enough to concede any point that doesn't compromise your stance in any way. As in, you conceding that Avatar is anime in the sense that it's "animation", while knowing full well I was referring to it as a certain Japanese style of animation. And heck, if you can't see the striking similarities between the art of Dragonball Z and Cowboy Bebop, I can't make you.

Sigh, please stop acting like I'm attacking you.  I really hope you're not mad at me.  That's certainly not what I'm going for.  I mean, yes, obviously there's only so much I can concede based on what you're giving me.  I'm certainly somewhat drawn to my stance, and I have given a certain amount of evidence and reasoning to back it up.  That's really all I can do until you provide me an outside source that credits a definition of "anime" as solely referring to a style of animation.  I'm sorry.  And I'm not trying to be condescending.  If this debate is going to affect our forum friendship, I will gladly stop talking about it entirely.  It's certainly not worth it because you're a great guy.

C3PX said:

Gaffer Tape said:

I have wonderfully amusing mental images of the process in which an American brewery makes a bear at all, let alone one inspired by European beer.

Oops. Did I misspell it? I don't even know, I deleted that section of my post, having written it before reading the last few posts and realizing the precarious ledge this discussion was heading towards.

 

Aw, I'm a bit disappointed that you did edit that out of your post because I was looking forward to driving this thread into some hilarious discussion on genetically-manufactured beer bears.  But, yeah, you did happen to misspell it in that one instance, so I thought I'd turn it into a joke.

But since you did edit your post, I'll just go ahead and thank you kindly for being my character witness.  ^_^

Yeah please, I hate to see two of my good ot.com comrades have a falling out over animated pictures. Come'on DF! Bears all around, on me! PROST!

EDIT: I am afraid the damage has already been done Gafe... my post has been edited and I have no way to undo it, but I think you are still safe to drive it in that direction, we've been talking about it for the past few posts, so I am sure even the folks who missed my original spelling mistake will pick up on it. If I really need to I can go back and try to write something very similar to what I originally wrote while being sure to intentionally recreate my spelling error.

DOUBLE-EDIT: Damn, I just can't keep my mouth shut... I will probably regret saying this, as it is kind of throwing fuel on the fire, but in any discussion I like when others correct my historical accuracy, as I don't want to be right for my ego's sake, I want to be right because I am right... if I am not mistaken, Betty Boop is from the 1930's or 40's, and I know Bambi from the 40's, while Japanese anime pre-dates the 1920's... or so say my nerdy friends... do you smell that? Did I just step in something? I am going to go wipe off my shoe now and get back to enjoying that ice cold bear.

It's based off American comics from way back when.  Also, Disney's style influenced earlier (however not the first) anime.

And basically, I want to say what Gaffer said to you DF.  Definitely how I feel.