Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 104

funny how they just take shit from grevious

Droids in the Star Wars universe are slaves (as are the Clones).

So they will politely take whatever is thrown at them.

If Dooku had ordered them to try their best to kill Grevious they would do that politely too (just as the Clones do when ordered to kill their former Generals).

Neither army is evil as such as they lack free will.

The sequel saga (which George says will never happen) should have dealt with this issue.

Obi-Wan does postulate the interesting notion of, "Well, if droids could think, none of us would be here".

The saga has two droids as main characters who constantly use their own initiative, it's not a huge leap to imagine a nuGalactica style droid/clone epiphanic revolt.

Though this thread isn't really the place for talking about such things as none of this has much of a bearing on ROTJ or ESB (other than altering the stupid comedy droid torture scene).

Bingowings said:

Droids in the Star Wars universe are slaves (as are the Clones).

So they will politely take whatever is thrown at them.

If Dooku had ordered them to try their best to kill Grevious they would do that politely too (just as the Clones do when ordered to kill their former Generals).

Neither army is evil as such as they lack free will.

The sequel saga (which George says will never happen) should have dealt with this issue.

Obi-Wan does postulate the interesting notion of, "Well, if droids could think, none of us would be here".

The saga has two droids as main characters who constantly use their own initiative, it's not a huge leap to imagine a nuGalactica style droid/clone epiphanic revolt.

Though this thread isn't really the place for talking about such things as none of this has much of a bearing on ROTJ or ESB (other than altering the stupid comedy droid torture scene).

ahem* i would like to point u out to the novels and read them. u will find that a clone is more of an individual then is shown in the movies. they don't lack free will. one of them had  sex with a jedi and had a little mando/jedi baby. i needn't go anyfurther

Unsure if this has been covered or not. If it has been, I apologise. I've skimmed through this thread as much as my patience will allow.

This isn't a suggestion but more an observation (as not only would it be impossible for anyone but lucasfilm to do, but few fans would desire the change) but it always seemed odd to me that Lucasfilm would change Anakin's ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi, yet keep Vader unmasked the same. Now I understand that he's aged, but still - it is obvious to anyone that this is not an aging Hayden Christensen.

I would have expected lucas to have changed unmasked vader to something along the lines of this publicity pic (only aged more with makeup):

This would have at least added continuity, whether it outraged the fans or not.

EDIT: I have no idea why the image has formatted itself to the right.

rcb said:

Bingowings said:

Droids in the Star Wars universe are slaves (as are the Clones).

So they will politely take whatever is thrown at them.

If Dooku had ordered them to try their best to kill Grevious they would do that politely too (just as the Clones do when ordered to kill their former Generals).

Neither army is evil as such as they lack free will.

The sequel saga (which George says will never happen) should have dealt with this issue.

Obi-Wan does postulate the interesting notion of, "Well, if droids could think, none of us would be here".

The saga has two droids as main characters who constantly use their own initiative, it's not a huge leap to imagine a nuGalactica style droid/clone epiphanic revolt.

Though this thread isn't really the place for talking about such things as none of this has much of a bearing on ROTJ or ESB (other than altering the stupid comedy droid torture scene).

ahem* i would like to point u out to the novels and read them. u will find that a clone is more of an individual then is shown in the movies. they don't lack free will. one of them had  sex with a jedi and had a little mando/jedi baby. i needn't go anyfurther

 

Seeing as none of the books are part of the film series, no you needn't go any further.

In the films as they stand the droids and clones are slaves created and programmed and no more responsible for what they do than my toaster (though the moments where R2 and Threepio seem to stretch beyond the limitations of blindly following orders as given are very interesting and something which flies in the face of George's claim that there is no more story to tell....on screen).

Seeing as this is a ROTJ and ESB thread it's the last I shall say on the subject here.

Unsure if this has been covered or not. If it has been, I apologise. I've skimmed through this thread as much as my patience will allow.

This isn't a suggestion but more an observation (as not only would it be impossible for anyone but lucasfilm to do, but few fans would desire the change) but it always seemed odd to me that Lucasfilm would change Anakin's ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi, yet keep Vader unmasked the same. Now I understand that he's aged, but still - it is obvious to anyone that this is not an aging Hayden Christensen.

I would have expected lucas to have changed unmasked vader to something along the lines of this publicity pic (only aged more with makeup):

 

This would have at least added continuity, whether it outraged the fans or not.

 

EDIT: I have no idea why the image has formatted itself to the right.

It would be easy to blurt out something like, "Don't give George any more ideas" but you do make a very valid point.

While I think Seb Shaw looks fine as he is now that his eye colour is changed and the bushy eyebrows are gone, I am surprised that George didn't go all the way and remove him from the DVD version altogether.

Perhaps he thought that a quick cut and paste of Hayden's head on his ghost was enough.

It's a bit hard to explain how the former jerk over the years developed a clear RP English accent for example.

My personal solution to this problem would be to re-dub all of Anakin's PT dialogue with a good RP English voice actor rather than the much easier reverse solution. Bogged down as I currently am with altering dialogue with the music and sound effects getting in the way, that may prove to be too hard a task without the source materials (which George has presumably).

Davnes007 said:

If droids are programmed to obey, why do they need 'restraining bolts'?

Presumably because some droids (like R2 in ANH) are prone to follow the commands of who they are programmed to believe their master to be over that of their current owner.

It must be a rare but significant problem with second hand or stolen droids.

My assumption would be that restraining bolts are a quick and dirty way of bypassing the droids' current programming, programming that might make it impossible for, say, Luke to give an order to a droid legally owned by the Royal House of Alderaan.  The restraining bolt is like a DRM crack for droids.

I'd even go so far as to say I don't particularly mind ghost Hayden at the end, so long as it was consistent with unmasked vader. (which currently it isn't)

I think the only reason I hated seeing ghost hayden in the dvd release was because I hated his portrayal of Anakin in the prequels - something a talented editor can hopefully fix to a degree.

Of course, the preferable route would be to go back and reshoot prequel Anakin with someone who looks like a young Sebastian Shaw, rather than changing the OT. Damn Lucas for making his own saga so damn inconsistent with regards to who he considers the main character of the series!

In regard to the droid thing, the way i always understood it was that droids are indeed mindless drones, until that is, they go without a memory wipe for too long, and develop their own personality, becoming sentient and having free will - which explains R2 and threepio's independence.

vaderios said:

rcb said:

 one of them had  sex with a jedi and had a little mando/jedi baby. i needn't go anyfurther

Who/when/where?

I need the full title of the comic. I may do the deleted scenes :)

 

-Angel

 

 its in the republic commando novel series:

Book I: Hard contact

Book II: Triple Zero

Book III: True Colors

Book IV: order 66

prolly the best novel series i've read so far, for star wars that is.

brash_stryker said:

Unsure if this has been covered or not. If it has been, I apologise. I've skimmed through this thread as much as my patience will allow.

This isn't a suggestion but more an observation (as not only would it be impossible for anyone but lucasfilm to do, but few fans would desire the change) but it always seemed odd to me that Lucasfilm would change Anakin's ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi, yet keep Vader unmasked the same. Now I understand that he's aged, but still - it is obvious to anyone that this is not an aging Hayden Christensen.

I would have expected lucas to have changed unmasked vader to something along the lines of this publicity pic (only aged more with makeup):

 

This would have at least added continuity, whether it outraged the fans or not.

 

EDIT: I have no idea why the image has formatted itself to the right.

 see that's a cool unmasked vader. no offense to the original, but like u said, it helps with continuity in the films. however, i would give him some more burn marks since his entire body was torched

Yeah, I'm sorry to say that I would prefer Shaw be replaced by something like that. There's no way to change Hayden in the prequels (No one is gonna reshoot Anakin's scenes), so to keep the consistancy, I'd rather have an aged Hayden than Sebation Shaw. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Akwat Kbrana said:

And I suppose while we're at it, we might as well delete any dialogue in the OT that might contradict the PT. For instance, virtually anything Obi-Wan says about Luke's pa, and Obi-Wan's instruction to Luke on Hoth to seek out Yoda ("the Jedi master who instructed me"), and Obi-Wan's interaction with Yoda inside Yoda's hut, and Obi's claim that Anakin "wanted you [Luke] to have this when you were old enough," and the dialogue between Luke and Leia on Endor in which Leia claims to remember her mother, and countless other bits and pieces of OT canon that just doesn't jive with established PT dogma. Right? After all, consistency is more important than quality.

No. Except the one about Leia remembering her mother. Luke asking if she remembers her mother could just be removed. The others can be explained... Yoda probably DID train Obi-Wan before Qui Gon took him on as a padawan. And about the lightsaber thing, Obi-Wan could have assumed Anakin would have wanted his son to have his lightsaber, if that makes any sense.

brash_stryker said:

I would have expected lucas to have changed unmasked vader to something along the lines of this publicity pic (only aged more with makeup):

 

This would have at least added continuity, whether it outraged the fans or not.

 

EDIT: I have no idea why the image has formatted itself to the right.

Pictures like this confirm my suspicions that Lucas has filmed a new unmasking scene.

Anyways. The end of ROTJ is such a mess now. I would say sense it is impossible to get a Hayden unmasking scene ( and better force ghost scene for that matter) just stick with Shaw.

Or do a morph for all three of them from old to young???

Seb Shaw doesn't look that much different from a middle aged Hayden now that the eye colour has changed, (the only aspect of the make-up that does need a fix is the top of the head which is obviously built up and looks a little silly).

I wasn't suggesting reshooting all of Hayden's scenes (as much as I would love to) but replacing his voice which is a difficult task but if it could be pulled off would fix so much of what is wrong about the prequels (namely Hayden's often lamentably bad performance).

Hell, if I could I'd do the same for Lloyd too.

A good actor can give even the wonkiest script the necessary gravitas to propel a story (great actors like Derek Jacobi could turn the phone book into an emotional roller coaster ride).

The irony is that the much touted (and I'm not sure how apocryphal the story is) first choice of Leonardo DiCaprio looks more like a half way between Shaw and Lloyd than Hayden does and the must have been no shortage of DiCaprio lookalike, unknown actors with talent who could have done the job better.  Why they went for that plank is beyond me (not that I'm convinced that DiCaprio would have done much better either with Lucas pulling the strings and if the reports of DiCaprio turning the script down are true good on him, I'm not a big fan of his work but the script for AOTC reads like bad fan fiction). I suspect they only picked Lloyd because he had a DiCaprio shaped head, something Hayden clearly does not (going by the screen tests for TPM Lloyd was not the best actor of the bunch).

Though that is really an object of discussion for another place.

If Shaw stays (my prefered choice), his ghost should stay too, middle aged Anakin is the only father Luke can relate to and the only one he would want to see.

I can understand changing his clothes to match those he wore in pre-Sith life but the head swap is a bizarre choice aimed largely at people too stupid to follow the story and work out that the old guy in the suit is the same character as the younger guy in the same suit three films back.

Going by that photo they should have waited a few years for Jake Lloyd to grow into the role or gone with Dicaprio both have the forehead, the jaw line and the brow though neither have the beak :