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The sets in ROTJ

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I always thought a lot of the sets in ROTJ were inferior to ESB and ANH. Like the Emperor's Thone room, it looks like a set. Lucasfilm seemed to get a little lazy to me with ROTJ. The special effects didn't look as polished, the directing seemed a little bit clumsy, the camera work wasn't as good, regardless, I still love the movie and think it is a competent episode of the trilogy.

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I never really saw the throne room as "set-like", but maybe it is.

Return of the Jedi does have a number of silly flaws. One of the biggest ones is the explosion Han and Chewie set off. The come running out of the bunker and stand clear, watching and waiting for the explosion, and BOOM. The thing explodes, camera zooms out, and we see the thing exploding big time, Han and Chewie shoudl have come out of their charred, hairless and in little pieces. Too busy making a huge and attractive explosion to realize what a dumb logical error it was.

So yeah, I very much agree with you. Many little things like snuck by in that film.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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It's still better than a bare greenscreen set with a couple tape marks on the floor. :P

I found it amusing Star Trek Nemesis totally ripped off the Emperor's Throne room. I thought Vader and Palpatine were going walk in on Shinzon and Picard!

Most of the bunker explosion seems to go upward instead of out. IIRC, didn't they cut a few scenes of the rebels fighting their way into the main part of the bunker? There's no real frame of reference as to how far in they were from the "back door" anyway. Unless Lucasfilm has released a detailed blueprint of the Endor bunker of course. ;)

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

 IIRC, didn't they cut a few scenes of the rebels fighting their way into the main part of the bunker? There's no real frame of reference as to how far in they were from the "back door" anyway. 

Yeah, they cut that scene down quite a bit. There are some still photos floating around of some of the cut shots.

 

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Yeah I agree with Silverwook on that point.

I see it as the shield generator (landing platform and the rest since we didn't really see too much) being engulfed in a huge fireball, not so much the back entrance. Who's to say how far apart they really are?

 

"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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the worst set piece is Luke stepping off the AT-AT and talking to Vader on that walkway. behind them you see the AT-AT's head awkwardly placed up against a big tree. like they couldn't figure out another way to hold the head up? yeah great idea slam it up against a tree that wasn't even there in the previous shot. it takes me out of the film.

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Dude, the AT-AT could have been sleeping, or just resting its head, large all terrain armored transports get tired too you know.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I can't believe you guys are thrashing a pretty good film like Return of the Jedi while there are others Lucas films that deserve it far more like the star wars prequels and Indiana Jones Kingdom of the Crystal numbskull.

Sure it is not as good as star wars or empire strikes back, but it is the closing chapter of three films and has to tie up the plot threads and angles from the last film empire strikes back.

As a giddy happy go lucky kids movie that makes you smile and as a swashbuckler it does fine, plus there are the darker moments towards the end.  The film deals with Redemption, and Love.  The need to fight to be free or be enslaved.

Was empire scripted and directed better on all counts.  Still Return of the Jedi is still my favorite film of the trilogy, not from critical appraisal but because i had a heck of a good time seeing it on the screen in 1985.  I cannot be rescued from that nostalgia nor would i want to be. As a kid used to seeing cartoons on tv like Masters of the universe and Transformers return of the jedi was a revelation.  I suddenly wanted to be a jedi like luke skywalker and wield a green bladed lightsaber,lol.

You want to know what i thought of Empire Strikes Back as a kid i thought it was slow and boring, the same with the first half of star wars.  Of course years later i realized how slow Jedi starts out but as a child i was facinated by jabbas palace and all the creatures and muppets.  In fact it was probably the first time i had experienced another world being created right before my eyes on the big screen.

As action adventure swashbuckling films star wars and return of the jedi are heads above the slow and plodding empire strikes back.  They recall the pirate films and errol flynn films of yesteryear as well as the old saturday matinee serials and are just plain fun to watch.  Empire works almost like a stage play which is its strength, i mean you take out the fantastic walker piece at the beginning and the duel and its mainly a character piece.  Which is funny because star trek's empire strikes back is the Wrath of Khan.  Though not nearly as good.

When they were originally released jedi made more than empire, and lucas was proven right to go more in a kid friendly direction in the future to make more money.  I think empire is as much for kids as it is for adults, the film does not talk down to children.  Reminds me of the uncut and uncensored grimm's fairy tales in that way. 

I also realize that as much as i like Jedi it was the beginning of the end, but ewoks as annoying as they are were worlds away from Jar Jar.  Jedi's success allowed Lucas ten years later to begin planning his destruction of star wars.  That same year in 1993 the definitive collection was released on laserdisc.  A year after that in nov 1994 he wrote the first outline for the phantom menace. 2-3 years after that the original camera negatives were permanently altered for the original trilogy and greedo shot first. 2 years after that Jar JAr stepped in poo. The end began.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Unfortunate. You would've made a great warrior for my side, skyjedi. Maybe in another life, my friend. ;) :P

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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Favorite and best are two very different things.  As an adult i realize sitting down and rewatching the films on dvd that empire is about a hundred times better than jedi. 

There are many many cringe worthy moments in rotj that i never noticed before now.  It is a very flawed film and far from perfect.  In the same way as rewatching last crusade i realized how inferior it was to raiders.  Still i would take jedi anyday over the prequels, the gout is the only way i watch the trilogy. 

The only indiana jones flms i watch are raiders and last crusade.  I sometimes watch doom out of nostalgia but despite a couple parts i like it is thrown out of my viewing list along with crystal skull.  At least i own temple of doom.  Fuck crystal numbskull that is not even on my dvd shelf and i gave away the destroyed 2004 version of the star wars trilogy to my sister in law's nieces.

There are those that think Revenge of the Shit is better than Return of the Jedi.  I still think Jedi is better than the 3 prequels, Mark Hamill is a better actor than Hayden etc.

To me the biggest sin of Jedi is it has Han Solo standing around the whole movie really with nothing to do and no real devlopment to his character from empire.  And Ford looks bored out of his skull.  No pun intended,lol.

It is basically a Luke Skywalker movie.

Like the magazine cinescape article by that Altman guy said Jedi was just a rehash of a new hope just like last crusade was a rehash of raiders.  Basically lucas ran out of ideas years ago.  Crystal Skull is a rehash of raiders and a rehash of a rehash of raiders,lol.

Would the trilogy have been better if it was split into two trilogies as originally intended.   Then you have the sequel trilogy that does not have Luke except a cameo as an old man and the originall prequels being 12 films.  Lucas shortened it down to nine then again six.

The second death Star was a very bad idea and i agree with Kasden on that one.  If the budget was not an issue the duel would have been on the imperial home world in the emporers court on Had Abbadon, coruscant was a 90's EU creation.

Another reason why jedi is the weakest of the three is Lucas was very tired he wanted to tie up all the lose ends in an attempt to save his sanity and his marriage according to some written accounts. He basically took the 4 remaining films and made them into a single one.  Made Leia the sister etc. Had Luke confront the emperor much earlier than originally intended had Lukes training as a jedi shortened.

The prequels being as bad as they are reveal star wars 1977 and the Empire Strikes Back 1980 versions to be much better films.  Whereas the prequels make Return of the Jedi 1983 version a worse film.

The good Anakin in the prequels is never shown.  The good man who turned bad and had to be redeemed in rotj.  It makes the redemption of anakin skywalker meaningless because there was nothing to be redeemed in the first place.  That is why i imagine an alternate prequel story based on the available salient plot points from the original trilogy more in line with the oot and pretend the prequels don't exist.  The prequels ruin the very enjoyment of the original trilogy.

While were on the subject in hindsight i also would have liked a darker more adult Return of the Jedi that pays off Empire Strikes Back in a much larger way.   There is no fanfiction novel or fanedit in existance that does this and it might be a waste of time to try.  Ending the original trilogy with a teddy bear picnic is a little stupid, imho.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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The second death Star was a very bad idea and i agree with Kasden on that one.  If the budget was not an issue the duel would have been on the imperial home world in the emporers court on Had Abbadon, coruscant was a 90's EU creation

I'm glad this idea did not prevail, largely because the name "Had Abbadon" is really, really stupid. It's almost as bad as Elan Sleazebaggano.

I didn't really have a problem with the second Death Star. The thing destroys planets - why wouldn't the Empire want one?

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We'd already covered a Death Star. It's lazy from a storytelling perspective.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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DarkFather said:

We'd already covered a Death Star. It's lazy from a storytelling perspective.

 

Even if it was a battle over Courasant, would it be any different? I liked the idea of a second Death Star. Why not make another one? Remeber, before 1983, nobody had seen anything like ROTJ. So the material probably seemed more original back then.

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Janskeet said:
DarkFather said:

We'd already covered a Death Star. It's lazy from a storytelling perspective.

 

Even if it was a battle over Courasant, would it be any different? I liked the idea of a second Death Star. Why not make another one? Remeber, before 1983, nobody had seen anything like ROTJ. So the material probably seemed more original back then.

I answered that in the comment you quoted.

 

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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I don't feel that it is lazy story telling. It is not like they did the trench run again, it was a new design with new flaws, and the story around it was done completely different. Would it have made a difference to you if it had been a doomsday weapon with a different shape and name? As far as superlative weapons go, the Death Star is a pretty sweet one, what better way to end the trilogy.

I always hate these stories where the bad guys have a really good idea on their hands, then abandon it 100% just because the good guys luck one time and put an end to it. If I were in charge of the Empire I'd accept the loss with the first Death Star, and get at least to more into production immediately and throw whatever money necessary at keeping their construction quiet. 

Using the Death Star as bait in ROTJ in order to draw the rebels out squash them was a pretty good plan actually.

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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It was still a Death Star. Death Star with a slightly different scenario for destroying it, yes, though the less lazy route would have been to have an entirely new concept altogether (including something else rather than a Death Star).

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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Perhaps they should have shaped it like a cube, and called it the Planet Destroyer 5000.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Perhaps they could have come up with a concept that involved something else rather than a station that destroys planets.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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Some type of sun crusher or a star destroyer or something perhaps maybe

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Maybe the "Moon Basher"*, "Asteroid Assassin"*, or "Comet Smacker"*?

I like naming these apocalyptic interstellar superweapons.

*Note: All of these are better names than "Had Abbadon".

Want to book yourself or a guest on THE VFP Show? PM me!

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Anyone see the end of Farscape? spoilers for the END here.

 

Spoiler:
black hole weapon sucking up a planet and 2 opposing fleets

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The funny thing is Had Abbadon was reused in the EU legacy comics series for a volcanic planet much like Mustafar.  Gee the original storyboards for Return of the Jedi showed the imperial homeworld had Volcanic activity down in the lower regions of Palpatines Palace.  Vader and Luke would have dueled over a pit of Lava.  Lucas told Joe Johnston to stop work on it and he would save it for another day.

Still in that same draft Ben comes back bodily from the netherworld and yoda as a ghost to help Luke in his fight, very bad idea.

Lucas first ideas are not always his best.  He was going to have a 13 year old Han Solo in Revenge of the Sith who with Chewie whose family adopted Han and raised them together as brothers, meet and help save yoda.  He was supposed to be according to Lucas notes i think based on memory like Tom Sawyer and Tarzan.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Deathtical, anyone?

 

the sphere of fear.. or planet death.. the killing ball? death moon? giant hurt ball?

 

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Davnes007 said:

"I am your baby's daddy!"

 

Whoa! That is definitely one of the more unsettling bits of news I have heard all day. I still think some DNA work is in order before I accept it though. But if its true, I will be expecting monthly child support checks.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape