Poll: ROTJ Celebration Themes - 1983 or 1997? — Page 3

Your Yub-yub goes all the way up to 11.

It's odd to me how many people prefer "Sad Flautists" to "Yub Yub."

Without commenting on their musical worth, does that mean the Special Editions really aren't disliked philisophically. I mean, is it fine for Lucas to frak with his films, as long as we like the results?

I Greedo had ORIGINALLY shot first, would we say the SE was great if Lucas changed it to Han?

If it's "Curse you Lucas for changing these movies!" for things we don't like, shouldn't that same viewpoint apply to all of the SE changes, Jawas falling off of Rontos and the South American Pipe music?

double post. But allow me to use this space to reiterate that I really, really hate Andean pipe music, in all of its forms.

TheBoost said:

It's odd to me how many people prefer "Sad Flautists" to "Yub Yub."

Without commenting on their musical worth, does that mean the Special Editions really aren't disliked philisophically. I mean, is it fine for Lucas to frak with his films, as long as we like the results?

I Greedo had ORIGINALLY shot first, would we say the SE was great if Lucas changed it to Han?

If it's "Curse you Lucas for changing these movies!" for things we don't like, shouldn't that same viewpoint apply to all of the SE changes, Jawas falling off of Rontos and the South American Pipe music?

As far as I'm concerned, any changes are not good, because they're not the original. But things that are not the original don't tend to fit with the films like the originals things do. Yub nub is true to the intended spirit of ROTJ's ending. The 97 music is not.

Well, at least with Blade Runner, the versions were tied in up in legal hassles all that time.

Definitely.  I don't likes the Yub Yub, but dang if I don't want it (and only it) on a proper release of the original theatrical edition.

C3PX said:

I am through with this discussion. Reading some of your hair brained bullcrap is really beginning to insult my intelligence, and I really don't care that much about the subject at hand to go around in circles about it anyway.

Oh I see, thinking differently from C3PX = "hair brained bullcrap." Nice to know that. So you see a different way of looking at things and thinking about things that doesn't give in and back down and go "Sorry, I realize I should be thinking like C3PX" and your reaction is to decide that means the thinking must be crap. Because your mind doesn't work like mine then my mind must be full of shit. I'm glad to find out you're so open to other ways of thinking.

Btw, it's "hare-brained", not "hair-brained".

I see nothing at the end of the film to indicate a definite end. Absolutely nothing. You've failed to show me anything. You have yet to offer anything other than odd reasoning to defend your side. The fact is, at the end of the film there is still a big fleet out there. I am not trying to force the movie to follow my adult form of logic that it doesn't follow. I am not trying to force it to be an adult movie and not a kids movie all the while suffering from denial as you have decided I have. Just because it is a kids movie doesn't mean it has to toss out every inch of reason. That is great that you think it does. Bravo. You seem to be a very well grounded individual.

You are still refusing to understand the principle that just because logic dictates something should happen in the story doesn't mean it happens, because logic doesn't rule in this story. Just because it's a kids' fairytale doesn't mean we should toss out every inch of reason, true. Neither I nor Kasdan nor Lucas tossed out every inch of reason. But where logic gets in the way of where the story needs to go then reason IS tossed out. As has been demonstrated elsewhere in the film. I don't see why it's so hard for you to understand that. I can only theorize that the reason you are so resistant to understanding it is because you don't want Star Wars to be something that works like that. You may not be in denial about it being a kids' film, but you leave me no option but to assume you are in denial about the rules of how this sort of kids' story works. In that sense it seems to me that you are indeed trying to force it to fit to logical adult rules that it doesn't run by.

And it's not true to say that I've shown you nothing. I've pointed to what you need to see, which you'd see if you were open to it. I have also brought up supporting evidence, like stuff said by Lucas about the film.

Anyway, time to end this pointlessness now. Anything else you say on this subject will not be getting a response from me. Why? Because you are saying the same damn thing over and over again, only in longer and longer posts. Having to read longer posts of the same thing, then having you add in about my denial issues isn't going to change my mind about this, it is just going to try my patience.

I'm sorry if my comments about denial bother you so much, but you're not the only one who can get frustrated and you've been giving me a lot of argument about this on two different threads AFTER you'd already conceded and said my argument was right and that you were mistaken. I'm sorry but I find it dishonest to concede and then go back on it like that. You've gotten me quite fed up and I've found myself throwing up my arms in despair at you repeatedly coming out with arguments that to me seemed desperately obtuse and narrow. It's only natural that I reach for an explanation for your behavior. I'm sorry if it bothered you.

And you need to note that you've been saying pretty much the same sort of thing repeatedly yourself.

Also, you totally missed my whole thing with The Hobbit too, I was comparing Smug to the Death Star and Vader and Palps, the immediate threats. And the orc army to the Imperials. At the end of the book the orcs are still out there, a threat to peace and freedom on the people of Middle-Earth, but not an immediate threat. That is the same way I feel about ROTJ. The Imperials are still out there, still a threat to peace and freedom in the galaxy, but not an immediate threat. Which is why to me, being someone going down the path of nuttiness and denial that I am (according to you anyway), both the The Hobbit and ROTJ can end on a happy note without lying to kids and trying to convince them the world is now perfect just because there are happy moments.

You didn't make it at all clear that you were comparing Smaug to Vader/Palpatine/Death Star. You sounded like you were under the impression that Smaug might come back after the end of the book. And a comparison between the Hobbit's goblins (they were called goblins not orcs in The Hobbit) does not work. If the empire was still around it would be a pretty immediate threat. Not immediate as in of that moment, bit immediate as in they would have to fight them soon. It was not implied in the end of The Hobbit that a big war with the goblins was necessary any time soon. There was no war going on at the end of The Hobbit. But if the empire was still around the rebels would still be in a war at the end of ROTJ. As such the goblins at the end of The Hobbit are a very different situation from the threat of the empire hanging over the rebels as it would be in your version of the end of ROTJ. The conflict was OVER at the end of The Hobbit, hence the happily ever after ending. But in your vision of ROTJ the conflict would NOT be over, hence no happily ever after. Bilbo Baggins doesn't have to fight any goblins after The Hobbit, but Han and Luke and Leia would have to fight lots of imperials soon after ROTJ if you were right.

Anyway, none of this really matters.

Yes it does matter. This is the end of the only real Star Wars story that we're talking about here. It matters if Star Wars matters. And if it didn't matter to you, you wouldn't be arguing with me about it on three threads. But if you feel it doesn't matter enough to continue debating with me about it, then please feel free to stop and to avoid debating it with me about it on any future threads, because our discussions on the matter are not working out well. 

Look, I'm sorry if I've pissed you off. I think you're right that this discussion should end here.

(post screwed up)

C3PX said: 

Stop trying to psycho analyze us to prove your point.

 

DarkFather said:

Sorry about that. I think the little guy learned it from me.

C3PX said:

I doubt it. He is fully capable of it on his own. Either way, at least when you play doctor your analzes are semi-applicable. He just does it to undermine.

DarkFather's theories about me were complete bullshit. My attempts to figure out why you were thinking and behaving as you were were done to make sense of your attitude, not to undermine. I'm sorry I offended you.

Akwat Kbrana said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

C3PX said:

I am through with this discussion. Reading some of your hair brained bullcrap is really beginning to insult my intelligence, and I really don't care that much about the subject at hand to go around in circles about it anyway.

Oh I see, thinking differently from C3PX = "hair brained bullcrap." Nice to know that. So you see a different way of looking at things and thinking about things that doesn't give in and back down and go "Sorry, I realize I should be thinking like C3PX" and your reaction is to decide that means the thinking must be crap. Because your mind doesn't work like mine then my mind must be full of shit. I'm glad to find out you're so open to other ways of thinking.

Btw, it's "hare-brained", not "hair-brained".

The issue is not so much that you had a differing point of view than C3PX, but that you openly and intentionally abandoned reason and logic because of some vague "implication" that everyone is somehow supposed to pick up on. Allegedly, this is because ROTJ is meant to be a kid's story instead of an adult's story (which is borderline equivovation on your part, BTW, since you've said elsewhere, "Not true at all. ROTJ is mich more adult-friendly than TPM and a very different animal.") Well, I can't dispute your "viewer response" inference, but I personally never picked up an any "implication" that the entirety of the conflict was over after the battle of Endor...not even when I first watched it as a small child. The very idea is absurdly ludicrous to adults and children alike...thus, the "hair brained bullcrap" analysis isn't so far off.

(BTW, needling someone on the basis of a typo is pretty immature. You've made quite a few typos yourself, but I don't see anyone rubbing your nose in them. This is an internet message board; being anal about typographical precision is just ridiculous.)

You are still refusing to understand the principle that just because logic dictates something should happen in the story doesn't mean it happens, because logic doesn't rule in this story. Just because it's a kids' fairytale doesn't mean we should toss out every inch of reason, true. Neither I nor Kasdan nor Lucas tossed out every inch of reason. But where logic gets in the way of where the story needs to go then reason IS tossed out.

This is very silly. What it ends up meaning is "logic doesn't count when I don't like the implications of logical thought." It's particularly odd coming from someone who proposed the notion of three seperate clone templates in AOTC based on the fact that there were three seperate actors used to depict them, and that Boba isn't really Jango's clone since the two actors don't look 100% identical. Looks like you're pretty selective about when "where the story needs to go" counts, and when it doesn't.

Consistency, thou art a gem.

The issue is not so much that you had a differing point of view than C3PX, but that you openly and intentionally abandoned reason and logic because of some vague "implication" that everyone is somehow supposed to pick up on. Allegedly, this is because ROTJ is meant to be a kid's story instead of an adult's story (which is borderline equivovation on your part, BTW, since you've said elsewhere, "Not true at all. ROTJ is mich more adult-friendly than TPM and a very different animal.") Well, I can't dispute your "viewer response" inference, but I personally never picked up an any "implication" that the entirety of the conflict was over after the battle of Endor...not even when I first watched it as a small child. The very idea is absurdly ludicrous to adults and children alike...thus, the "hair brained bullcrap" analysis isn't so far off.

The "very idea" has worked perfectly well for many adults and children from 1983 down to this day. No I didn't abandon reason and logic. I recognized that ROTJ didn't always choose to follow reason and logic. There is a difference. It is reasonable and logical to recognize that ROTJ isn't always trying to be reasonable and logical. And if ROTJ isn't running by reason and logic then you can't infer that something must happen in the story just because reason and logic say it should. I am not abandoning reason and logic. ROTJ is.

Allegedly, this is because ROTJ is meant to be a kid's story instead of an adult's story (which is borderline equivovation on your part, BTW, since you've said elsewhere, "Not true at all. ROTJ is mich more adult-friendly than TPM and a very different animal.")

My statement that you quote was in response to a claim that ROTJ was EXCLUSIVELY for children and was the same as TPM. It is not those things, but it is a children's fairytale. It is a children's fairytale designed to work for adults who don't need everything to be logical.

(BTW, needling someone on the basis of a typo is pretty immature. You've made quite a few typos yourself, but I don't see anyone rubbing your nose in them. This is an internet message board; being anal about typographical precision is just ridiculous.)

I don't concern myself with what's mature or isn't. I tend to feel that only people who are insecure in their own maturity do that. I don't usually correct people's typos, but C3PX was reacting to my view with such an unfriendly sulk (being very dismissive towards me in the process) that I felt he deserved it.

Vaderisnothayden said:

You are still refusing to understand the principle that just because logic dictates something should happen in the story doesn't mean it happens, because logic doesn't rule in this story. Just because it's a kids' fairytale doesn't mean we should toss out every inch of reason, true. Neither I nor Kasdan nor Lucas tossed out every inch of reason. But where logic gets in the way of where the story needs to go then reason IS tossed out.

AkwatKbrana said:

This is very silly. What it ends up meaning is "logic doesn't count when I don't like the implications of logical thought." It's particularly odd coming from someone who proposed the notion of three seperate clone templates in AOTC based on the fact that there were three seperate actors used to depict them, and that Boba isn't really Jango's clone since the two actors don't look 100% identical. Looks like you're pretty selective about when "where the story needs to go" counts, and when it doesn't.

If people are going to sneer at my thinking I wish they'd do it based on understanding my thinking, rather than confidently sneering at me based on not understanding my thinking at all. Take a look at what I really said. I never said that logic doesn't count whenever I don't like its implications. Rather, I acknowledged that the writers had clearly decided that they'd ignore logic when it didn't suit them. THEM, not me. Some writers writing some stories choose to abandon logic when it doesn't suit them to follow logic. That's what Lucas and Kasdan did in ROTJ. I am prepared to recognize that. It seems you don't want to.

As for the Boba Fett situation, I was never very serious about my theories about how many clone templates there were. I was just playing around seeing if the film could be explained so that it could work with Boba Fett not being a clone of Jango. Because the Boba-is-clone-of-Jango thing doesn't work for me, because I find them too different-looking (note, not just not 100% similar-looking, "too different-looking", as in significantly different-looking -I would have accepted somebody who looked more like Morrison, they didn't have to look 100% like him). I don't NEED the film to work with Boba Fett not being a clone. I don't NEED an explanation of how things could be the way they were in the film with Boba not being a clone. I just played around a bit with ideas for the sake of experimentation. I don't need the logic of the film to work. Even though I think AOTC has more pretentions to logic than ROTJ (not that its logic necessarily works better, just its nature implies more claim to be logical) and thus I think it should be held to a higher standard of logic because it intends to be a more logical sort of film. But I'm not particularly bothered by AOTC's logical lapses. There are other things about AOTC that bother me far more. So, let's get this straight, I was never much concerned with the logic of AOTC. The only thing that seriously concerned me was this attempt to pass off this kid as a clone of Jango when he didn't look like Jango. The logical implications were not my concern, the lack of facial resemblence was.

C3PX said:

Vaderisnohayden, my sincerest apologies for mis-spelling "hare-brained".

And I wasn't suggesting your ideas were hare-brained because they differed from my own. I suggested they were hare-brained simply because they were hare-brained.

As I already said, I am finished with this nonsense.

Not so finished with it to above one last dig, I see. This statement (below), when considered carefully, can be seen to make no sense. But you knew that. The statement in question:  

And I wasn't suggesting your ideas were hare-brained because they differed from my own. I suggested they were hare-brained simply because they were hare-brained.

DarkFather said:

Vaderisnothayden:

I very much believe you enjoy seeing other's reactions to you. You know how to dance precariously on the line of "normal" and "going too far." You're either a lover of the prequels that wants to show how extreme the other side can get, or it's pure entertainment for you. Or some of both.

For instance, I don't believe for a moment that Go-Mer-Tonic over at TheForce.net believes most of what he says. I've seen him drop too many hints that he understands perfectly well the other side's arguments, and agrees. At some point, he's conceded all points... only to go back to pretending like the concesion never happened.

It's not about Star Wars for either of you.

Of course, since you stand accused, you'll come back with some defense that amounts to "that's bullshit", but notice that in the other thread, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and treat this situation like that isn't the case. Meaning I'm holding back a little bit in condemning you in my mind, on the chance that I'm dead wrong.

I know what it's like to be accused of being some other user that you aren't, simply because you were new on a forum and said something serious that seemed outlandish to everyone else; and then the crowd laughing and agreeing with the self-proclaimed judge, with yourself then becoming an outcast. It has happened to me on tight-knit communities like this very, very often. So I was never quick to judge you. Even now, some part of me is willing to defend you. But if you don't swallow some of that pride and get behind me, you're going to be eaten by the pack today, tomorrow, or next month, but eventually.

I am so sick of your theories about me (oh yeah, sure, I'm 007 the undercover prequel fan agent, riiight) and your insults and your preaching down to me. You've given me all sorts of trouble all over this board. I've had enough. So from now on I won't be reading any posts of yours and you won't be baiting any more replies out of me. Have a nice day.

Blackjack said:

wow. hot topic.

Here's what I think:

what makes the Undestroyed RotJ ending so uplifting is that it shows the Skywalker family re-united and reconciled, and at the same time, appeals to religious beliefs about redemption and forgiveness.

It's not the various sites of people celebrating in the ending that puts a smile on my face,

It's when Leia runs up and hugs the Brother who she just learned she had returning safely to her, and Luke sees his father as the man he would have been at peace and reconciled with Obi-Wan and Yoda, smiling proudly and happily at him.

I don't think the rebels problems are over after RotJ, but they're definately one GIANT step closer to becoming so. but in the meantime, the MAIN plot point about the trilogy, The Skywalker family, has it's story wrapped up perfectly, and I get a genuine fealing of closure, in that there's nothing more that can be effectively done with those characters.

(and yes, I've felt that way about the Trilogy before the Photoshop program used to create the "prequels" was even blueprinted at adobe)

yes this is a hot topic. though, again i like the hayden being added but watever is chosen is fine. i do have to say though, that they did a nice job making him look a little older. shoul've put grey hair on him. at least a little anyway.