Akwat Kbrana said:Vaderisnothayden said:You guys are trying to read ROTJ as a realistic adult film that makes a priority out of logic. It wasn't that. It was a kids' fairytale with a happily ever after ending that implied the conflict was over. I think you want ROTJ to be that realistic adult film, so you can't accept that it wasn't and thus won't let yourself see the message the fairytale ending gave.
And it's irrelavant that the novelization can be considered EU. It was the most important companion to the film. They wouldn't have put in that "The empire was dead" unless that as Lucasfilm's view. The novelization was the thing that everybody read along with the film and it was spelling out what was seen on the screen. And yes that line was poetic, but I see nothing to imply that it didn't also mean what it said. Star Wars back then was the sort of thing that gave you what it said on the can. It was straight up. If they said the empire was dead they meant the empire was dead.
I think zombie84 (the writer of The Secret History of Star Wars) says it well in his post on the subject:
zombie84 said:I agree--logically, the ROTJ ending makes no sense; yet emotionally, it was always quite obvious to me that the message conveyed was that the Empire was defeated, and good guys won. I mean you practically could have had
"And they lived happily ever after"
when the iris closes on the final shot. Thats the point--thats the message you get. They can't live happily ever after if ROTJ just amounts to a strategic victory, the message throughout the entire movie, emotionally, is that "this is the final battle--it gets decided tonight", which is why all the sacrifice and basically putting your eggs in one basket approach (ie send the entire Alliance in a last-ditch battle to destroy the death star).
Personally, i never considered that there was the Empire out there, and I never knew anyone that did either--the film says "the good guys won, the Empire is defeated." Certainly that is what Lucas was trying to convey, and I think it largely worked, even if it doesn't work in a real-life setting, but then Star Wars has always been full of logical holes like this. While we are contemplating why the Rebels are celebrating what is only a strategic victory, we might also be contemplating how they can be celebrating on a planet that should be having nuclear winter.
Let me get this straight: you're arguing that since ROTJ wasn't intended "as a realistic adult film that makes a priority out of logic," therefore we should be illogical when watching it?! I guess you're welcome to check your brain at the door if you wish, but I still put a big premium on suspension of disbelief, so I'd prefer to keep mine functioning whilst watching, "fairy tale ending implied" or not. (If there was some explicit mention of everyone in the Empire simultaneously deciding to just give up and lay down their arms en masse, then I wouldn't have any ground to stand on, granted. But it seems to me that you're making a pretty big leap in logic based on something that is allegedly implied in the film's composition.)
I'm saying that you shouldn't expect the story to work by logic. If the film's emotional message says one thing and logic says another, then don't let logic prevent you from seeing the message. Don't expect the story to automatically follow logic. Don't assume that if logic says the story goes a certain way then that means the story goes that way. Not when the story's emotional message implies something different. If the film's story went by logic, the rescue of Han wouldn't have gone the way it did and the ewoks wouldn't have been so good at offing armored stormtroopers with sticks and stones and there would have been no celebration at the end because the ewoks would be getting bombarded by debris from the death star and wiped out.
And it is mistaken to assume that not forcing the film to go by logic means checking your brain at the door. There are ways of thinking and being perceptive other than using logic. Like being sensitive to emotional messages. No offense meant, but you are failing at that latter form of thinking. The emotional message at the end of the film says loud and clear that the conflict is over and the empire is dead. Focusing too heavily on one type of thinking can blind you to other kinds.
Also, I suggest you read the end of my previous post, because I edited in some stuff there while you were posting, starting after the zombie84 quote.