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Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 44

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I like the idea of starting on Tatooine and just deleting the opening Death Star scene;

That was one of the few decent parts in this otherwise incipid mess of a film. It's the last time Vader still had that distinguishable vibe that made him so popular as a villain in ANH and ESB.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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Davnes007 said:

 

It was mentioned before about how the Ewoks could be made to be more menacing, so I made a quick little video of the "Dead Animal On A Stick" scene, with a StormTrooper helmet inserted. I know it's crude, but I only did it to see how it would look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwOjAgaxE10

Don't hold back...be critical, and abusive...I can take it..... ;)

 

Definitely rough, but I like it a lot.  If it's edited exactly like that, with slightly more sinister music, and a convincing stormptrooper head, that would improve the scene tremendously.

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DarkFather said:

 

I like the idea of starting on Tatooine and just deleting the opening Death Star scene;

 

That was one of the few decent parts in this otherwise incipid mess of a film. It's the last time Vader still had that distinguishable vibe that made him so popular as a villain in ANH and ESB.

Once I have the new computer up and running I will be attempting variations on the Fan-O-Matic.

My instincts tell me that Dagobah (ending with Yoda's death) followed by Vader arriving at the Death Star 2 on the Executor with a redubbed Moff Jejerrod (he seems a bit too camp for a commandant) followed by Luke in Ben's Hut meeting Ben's ghost, followed by the Emperor arriving, followed by Droids on their way to Jabba is more the way to go.

But I won't be sure until I've tried out other combinations.

 

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Davnes007 said:

 

It was mentioned before about how the Ewoks could be made to be more menacing, so I made a quick little video of the "Dead Animal On A Stick" scene, with a StormTrooper helmet inserted. I know it's crude, but I only did it to see how it would look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwOjAgaxE10

Don't hold back...be critical, and abusive...I can take it..... ;)

 

I know it's rough and ready but putting the roughness to one side the idea seems to work (though perhaps the music should be changed to something a bit more sinister (it is a bit jolly for a moment of potential peril...it works a lot better with the sound turned down).

The best way around the roughness would be film the helmet (or head) on a stick as a new element rather than trying to just plop the helmet on what's already there.

I'd cut Han trying to reach for Luke's lightsabre but keep the line in only in the background while R2 cuts the ropes (but cut Threepio's Capt Obvious line about the drop...we are about to find that out for ourselves).

Perhaps the trap could have some sort of bells on it to alert the Ewoks to it being sprung.

I copied this from the ESB:R thread where the mispositioned post aided by old age and just coming back from the shop lead to my brain melting into a pool of goo.

Could you remove the post from the ESB: R thread to avoid other dipsticks like me from falling into the same trap?

 

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Your reordering and alteration of those scenes sounds intriguing.

Bingowings, do keep this in mind: I believe you know just as well as I do that if ROTJ is to be edited in a way that brings it up to the caliber of the previous two Star Wars films, your "radical redux" philosophy will need to be applied.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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Bingowings said:
DarkFather said:

 

I like the idea of starting on Tatooine and just deleting the opening Death Star scene;

 

That was one of the few decent parts in this otherwise incipid mess of a film. It's the last time Vader still had that distinguishable vibe that made him so popular as a villain in ANH and ESB.

Once I have the new computer up and running I will be attempting variations on the Fan-O-Matic.

My instincts tell me that Dagobah (ending with Yoda's death) followed by Vader arriving at the Death Star 2 on the Executor with a redubbed Moff Jejerrod (he seems a bit too camp for a commandant) followed by Luke in Ben's Hut meeting Ben's ghost, followed by the Emperor arriving, followed by Droids on their way to Jabba is more the way to go.

But I won't be sure until I've tried out other combinations.

 

I disagree - start with the Vader/Jerjerrod scene, then go to Boussh/Leia/Chewie, then Dagobah, then freeing Han from carbonite, then Luke arriving on Tatooine/Ben's hut/Ben's ghost, then the droids go but get captured before they can deliver the message, finally Luke arrives and the rest pretty much plays out as normal.  I don't know what to think about the Emperor arrival - it could work well after Ben's ghost scene, but I like the idea of not seeing any more of the Empire until Jabba's is all cleared up and they're on their way to the fleet.

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DarkFather said:

Your reordering and alteration of those scenes sounds intriguing.

Bingowings, do keep this in mind: I believe you know just as well as I do that if ROTJ is to be edited in a way that brings it up to the caliber of the previous two Star Wars films, your "radical redux" philosophy will need to be applied.

My thinking behind that configuration is that Yoda has just confirmed to Luke that Vader is his father, so enter Vader, later Ben says his feelings could be used by another, so enter the other.

But I can see how having Boussh turn up after Yoda's mention of the other would create a bit of foreshadowing before Ben confirms it but I'm finding it hard to square without the droids being in place.

I'm also thinking that Yoda shouldn't get a chance to mention that the other is a Skywalker before dying just to keep the surprise for a bit later so now he dies saying "There is..another" rather than "There is...another Skywalker".

As always how that turns out will come out in the wash.

Playing with the Boba Fett leaves to sell the Death Star location idea and the other other Death Star, the Executor attacking the Death Star 3 instead of bumping into the Death Star 2 are all radical ideas which are worth a try.

But it's important to get the basic story worked out in the right order before adding the big stuff.

I'm not Ady so this will really just be adding to the great leap that the Fan-O-Matic started (so still a rough sketch rather than a glorious fan edit) but it could serve as a guide to what is possible for more skilled film makers and editors out there.

I can see Chainsaw's point of view too so as I said before playing around with the order is the only way to be sure.

It might make sense to put each altered scene up a seperate mini film so everyone can fiddle about with which order they play it on Youtube or something like that and perhaps get a consensus opinion.

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Bingowings said:
Davnes007 said:

It was mentioned before about how the Ewoks could be made to be more menacing, so I made a quick little video of the "Dead Animal On A Stick" scene, with a StormTrooper helmet inserted. I know it's crude, but I only did it to see how it would look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwOjAgaxE10

Don't hold back...be critical, and abusive...I can take it..... ;)

I know it's rough and ready but putting the roughness to one side the idea seems to work (though perhaps the music should be changed to something a bit more sinister (it is a bit jolly for a moment of potential peril...it works a lot better with the sound turned down).

...

I'd cut Han trying to reach for Luke's lightsabre but keep the line in only in the background while R2 cuts the ropes (but cut Threepio's Capt Obvious line about the drop...we are about to find that out for ourselves).

...

Here's a quick vid

I kept the "Long Drop" line because it would be too jarring to remove it.

Star Wars Episode XXX: Erica Strikes Back

         Davnes007 LogoCanadian Flag

          If you want Nice, go to France

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 (Edited)

See this is the sort of thing I'm thinking of Davnes007 has just posted a bit of footage up on Youtube and we can now comment on it.

If this was done with complete edited scenes we could all comment on which scene fits best next to which other scene and a fan editor like Ady could then construct that into a new workprint.

Going on that particular clip it obvious that the motion of the trap is a nightmare to edit around.

I'd recommend isolating the close up shots where the traps motion is less obvious and keep the trap moving smoothly in the long shots but where possible shift the dialogue (when we don't see the actors lips moving) to run in the background of the more static inserts (like R2's saw).

But it's easy for me to type this podoo, it's not so easy to actually do it.

 

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Bingowings said:

...it's easy for me to type this podoo, it's not so easy to actually do it.

Yep...especially since my experience with Sony Vegas is VERY limited at this point...but I'm learning all the time. :)

 

Star Wars Episode XXX: Erica Strikes Back

         Davnes007 LogoCanadian Flag

          If you want Nice, go to France

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Bingowings said:

My thinking behind that configuration is that Yoda has just confirmed to Luke that Vader is his father, so enter Vader, later Ben says his feelings could be used by another, so enter the other.

But I can see how having Boussh turn up after Yoda's mention of the other would create a bit of foreshadowing before Ben confirms it but I'm finding it hard to square without the droids being in place.

I'm also thinking that Yoda shouldn't get a chance to mention that the other is a Skywalker before dying just to keep the surprise for a bit later so now he dies saying "There is..another" rather than "There is...another Skywalker".

Playing with the Boba Fett leaves to sell the Death Star location idea and the other other Death Star, the Executor attacking the Death Star 3 instead of bumping into the Death Star 2 are all radical ideas which are worth a try.

But it's important to get the basic story worked out in the right order before adding the big stuff.

I can see Chainsaw's point of view too so as I said before playing around with the order is the only way to be sure.

My only hangup with starting with the Dagobah scene is that it's a LOT of boring exposition right at the beginning of the film.  There's nothing to really "hook" you, whereas putting the Vader scene at the beginning is much more interesting.  And if you put the Boussh scene first, then Luke, then Vader ... I don't know, but something about that order just feels wrong to me.

I like the idea of getting rid of Yoda's "S..ky...wal...k...e.......r......" line, and I think the Boba Fett thing is interesting as well if it can be done properly.  I'm still not sold on the two Death Stars thing, but I think it could work if done carefully.

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This is kind of fun!  Not only suggest what kind of changes via FX and the like, but the actual flow of scenes!

Here is how I would cut JEDI:

(1) pan from the opening to the surface of Tatooine and play from the beginning with 3PO and R2.  You can slim 3PO's lines (maybe), but Jabba still needs an entrance.  You can alter the "Jabba behind the curtain" scene through editing (as described in an earlier post), as well as edit out the Lando reveal. 

Add some FX to smooth out the Rancor, electrify the door as Luke tries to force-open it, even showing Slave-1 taking off in the distance and add Jabba's palace in the background when we first see the sail barges (as if they just took off as opposed to have been travelling for some time).  Make the Sarlaac even a little bit bigger (and without the beak), fix the "force kick" and everything else remains the same.

(2) Luke heads out to Dagobah and meets with Yoda only; I see no problem with cutting out Ben's conversation, as it comes across as more "mandatory" than needed - Luke can figure out through the Force and his own intelligence that Leia is his sister, much less the concept that after Yoda dies his final test to complete his training is to face his fears ALONE with no coaching from a disembodied spirit. 

The conversation (with Yoda) ends with either Yoda confirming Vader as Luke's father or with the following line about "the other".  Add the dramatic music from the Owen and Beru death scene to emphasise the fact that Yoda is confirming what Luke feared, much less that he is all alone to face Vader AND the Emperor and segway with either old Imperial march (per the segway at the end of Owen and Beru's death) or replace with the EMPIRE march and:

(3) the entrance of the Emperor and the new Death Star.  Vader can either come down the ramp preceding the Emperor (as in he travelled with him as his chief hench man, ala Tarkin in ANH - which would allow the deletion of the useless red guards) or meet the Emperor as he was already stationed there.  The beginning with Vader is rather redundant, as we get 2 more introductions to the new Death Star, including this one.

(4) Luke meets up with the rebel fleet and they prepare to launch their attack.  Add some lines spoken off-camera (we see some reaction shots from Luke and Co. or other random troops) to the degree of "some of us have already infiltrated the base and will be waiting on the inside for your arrival" to indicate that this has been in the works for months as opposed to just that day.

Regardless, editing-wise the film would go along normally (albeit with the expected REVISITED style improvements).  No Hayden; no morphing Hayden INTO the older guy - Ben and Yoda are not younger, so why would Anakin be younger, especially when he redeemed himself as an old man?

The main problem one can run into when editing sequences is complicating the storytelling process; JEDI is fairly straight-forward, and while editing could improve it, the film can get convoluted too.

(5) beef up the Ewoks with some sharp teeth and claws, maybe some Jawa-esque eyes (not so bright, but something to make them stand out, like the replicants in BLADE RUNNER - I think it would be really cool to see a shot with multiple Ewoks in shadow with "cat eyes" like the DEMONS poster); I like the idea of adding shrunken heads on their belts or staffs, maybe playing with their language to make it more gutteral and I guess "wookie-ish" - in fact, what if you had Endor as the moon of Kashyyk, and the Ewoks were off-shoots of Wookies (thus, a reason to make them more wookieish)? 

Another idea: would it be possible to take all of the shots of Chewbacca (from A NEW HOPE, EMPIRE and even JEDI), alter them slightly and add in an extra Wookie or two so Chewbacca isn't the only Wookie there?

I'm getting off my own topic, but editing wise I would still try to keep it simple:

(1) Tatooine
(2) Dagobah
(3) Emperor, Vader and DS introduction
(4) rebel meeting
(5) fly to Endor and the rest follows

Chainsaw Ash:
I agree that there still need to be a hook - if you start with the Tatooine stuff (and all of it, beginning with 3PO, Jabba's introduction, Luke making his mysterious entrance, etc), you would directly follow up the end of EMPIRE (with them prepping to rescue Han) with them rescuing Han, which would be the hook. 

No Vader entrance needed, since he can be introduced at the same time the Emperor arrives and we still see the new SINGULAR Death Star - no need to make this even more complicated than it already is.

Luke goes to Dagobah and has the most important thing taken care of (at least for the audience): Vader is confirmed to be his father and Yoda passes away, leaving Luke alone to "finish his training" and find out if he really can be a Jedi ON HIS OWN.  Thus, no need for the Ben exposition scene.  If this is about Luke's growth as a person, sooner or later the training wheels have to come off and he has to start figuring things out on his own and DEAL with them on is own.  To have Ben, Yoda and OLDER Anakin to bookend the movie with their appearance to essentially tell him through their presence that he has succeeded is enough for Ben's involvement, since that is what Ben was training Luke for anyways.

In fact, I think it would help JEDI stand out of Ben was missing, making us feel just as alone as Luke (because if Ben doesn't make an appearance to Luke - visually or audioly - Luke is going to wonder the same thing we as the audience would: where is he?  Is he truly dead now?  Is he gone?  Does he WANT to help? Maybe Ben CAN'T make an appearance because the Force has a will of its own, and has deemed that Luke MUST face this final test ALONE).

         

 “You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”

– Homer Simpson

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I'm all for cutting Ben's conversation out entirely.  I do, however, think Luke needs to be on Dagobah before he's on Tatooine - we need to feel like he's been training there for a long period of time since "Empire" ended.  As it is, it feels like he got a couple weeks of training, left like an idiot, then decided he was a Jedi before even seeing Yoda again.  It just doesn't feel like he's had enough time to become a Jedi.

And I don't have a problem with introducing Jabba on the Lapti Nek (which SHOULD be replaced with something!)/Boussh sequence.  It works well as an introduction in my opinion, and sets a much more sinister tone for the film and for Jabba's lair.

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ChainsawAsh said:

I'm all for cutting Ben's conversation out entirely.  I do, however, think Luke needs to be on Dagobah before he's on Tatooine - we need to feel like he's been training there for a long period of time since "Empire" ended.  As it is, it feels like he got a couple weeks of training, left like an idiot, then decided he was a Jedi before even seeing Yoda again.  It just doesn't feel like he's had enough time to become a Jedi.

And I don't have a problem with introducing Jabba on the Lapti Nek (which SHOULD be replaced with something!)/Boussh sequence.  It works well as an introduction in my opinion, and sets a much more sinister tone for the film and for Jabba's lair.

It's odd that Han's line "I'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of granduer" is actually more true than it plays in the scene.  It does seem that Luke is a bit crazy, going in there unarmed with only one extended session of training...

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I would also keep the sister stuff to a minimum.

I can see editing off the Yoda line, "there... is.. a..nother.. (sky.. wal..ker)".  To HINT at someone else, who could be ANYBODY, would keep the audience on their toes.

Again, cut out Ben's scene and leave it to Luke to make the revelation; he has pretty much the best lines anyways, "My family has always been strong in the Force.  My father has it; I have it... and my SISTER has it.." whereupon Leia makes the connection herself.

When Luke is confronting Vader and Vader is searching for him underneath the Emperor's throne, delete the "SISter" and "your feelings have betrayed you" lines and just have Vader end his speech with "if you won't turn then perhaps SHE will."  This will save the Leia card for the very last moment, punching up the dramatic element of the scene (as in Vader is teasing Luke by hinting at what could he have read in Luke's mind until the very last moment)

I can see not adding Sith eyes to Luke, but we still need to see just HOW angry he is and show both small and large pieces of machinery ripped from the walls and being hurled into Vader as Luke simultaneously pounds away at him with his lightsaber.  To have Luke do to Vader what Vader did to him at Bespin but exponentially would show just how powerful Luke really was as well as explain how EMPIRE Vader could be defeated so quickly.

Iam thinking along the lines of DRAGONBALL Z with the Gohan character - no so much copying the visual theatrics but how the character of Gohan was relatively weak until he was pissed off or a family member was beaten to near death, whereupon he would "hulk out" so to speak.

         

 “You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”

– Homer Simpson

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ChainsawAsh said:

I'm all for cutting Ben's conversation out entirely.  I do, however, think Luke needs to be on Dagobah before he's on Tatooine - we need to feel like he's been training there for a long period of time since "Empire" ended.  As it is, it feels like he got a couple weeks of training, left like an idiot, then decided he was a Jedi before even seeing Yoda again.  It just doesn't feel like he's had enough time to become a Jedi.

And I don't have a problem with introducing Jabba on the Lapti Nek (which SHOULD be replaced with something!)/Boussh sequence.  It works well as an introduction in my opinion, and sets a much more sinister tone for the film and for Jabba's lair.

I have to completely disagree here (not to get the whole 20 response "back-and-forth" going like the last couple of pages), and here's why:

(1) when Luke enters Jabba's palace, he is wearing the black cloak and uniform.  At first you don't know who it is, but you have a good idea (especially when said dude is doing the force choke on the guards); it is a great character introduction, but storywise we have no idea how long he has been training - on his own.  Remember that Luke had commitments to the rebels, so it would be unnatural to fly off at the end of EMPIRE, train for a year (or even 6 months) while leaving the rebels alone.  Training in anything regarding philosophy has a lot more to do with putting that belief into practice than taking tests and passing grades - which is why when Luke goes to Dagobah AFTER Tatooine Yoda says your training is done even though he just got there. 

Luke's training was in his entire life experience: his leadership of the rebels; his rescuing of his friends and confrontation of Vader; him finishing his basic training ON HIS OWN, culminating with his rescue of Han from Jabba.  The whole entire point of the Tatooine sequence is to show that Luke has confidence in himself and the Force now, which is the main test to learn.  His final test was to confront his biggest challenge (converting Vader back to Anakin and defeating the Emperor) on his own without the help or guidance of any mentor.

Editing wise it would open the movie to a pretty slow scene (with or without Ben's sit-down with Luke).  I still understand the reasoning, but pace wise I would still open with Tatooine.

I guess a way to look at the OT is:

in A NEW HOPE Luke is a kid (wants more out of life, learns success and reward)

in EMPIRE Luke is a rebellious teenager (needs to be saved right off the bat; fights a losing battle with authority; ignores his "parental figures" to be with/help his friends; is betrayed by his parental figures)

in JEDI Luke becomes an adult (has to deal with responsibility and death on his own; has to become a father to his father, much less deal with the death of his parental figures and bury them)

(2) in regards to the Tatooine edit by Fan-O-Matic, you still need entrances for characters.  The problem with opening it right in the middle of the LAPTI-NEK song and dance is ... well, it just feels awkward.  Right off the bat, the tentacled chick is dumped into the pit, we see Jabba very non-chalantly and things just start happening.  If that's what you want, okay, I can dig it, but to me it feels disjointed and rushed.

Aaaanyways, it will be interesting to hear what Ady has to say about all this when he has the chance...

 

         

 “You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”

– Homer Simpson

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I like the idea of things get smashed by the force like vader in ROTS

The thing is how its possible without distreaction.?

A shaking camera after luke cut vader's arm and show in the background elemets get smashed and the camera is coming back to normal when luke sees the emperor.

 

It can work.

 

-Angel

–>Artwork<–**

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Monroville said:

I can see not adding Sith eyes to Luke, but we still need to see just HOW angry he is and show both small and large pieces of machinery ripped from the walls and being hurled into Vader as Luke simultaneously pounds away at him with his lightsaber.  To have Luke do to Vader what Vader did to him at Bespin but exponentially would show just how powerful Luke really was as well as explain how EMPIRE Vader could be defeated so quickly.

I absolutely HATE this idea.  I think it's just overkill, and I don't see what's wrong with the fight as is (and I'm glad you're not suggesting Sith eyes, which I think were one of the worst PT ideas ever).

And I don't have a problem with dropping us into Jabba's palace without "introductions" - that's how the beginning of ANH played out, really.  We were dropped into the middle of a situation and had to figure out what the fuck was going on pretty fast - same thing here.

Plus, it's not like we don't already know who these characters are.  This isn't the time to be giving people "good introductions" or anything - Luke's already had his introduction, it was in ANH.  Let his "robed" intro as he enters Jabba's palace be his first introduction as a true Jedi.

Oh, and to be clear, I don't want to start the movie with the Dagobah scene - that would, indeed, be boring.  Start with Vader/Jerjerrod, then Boussh, THEN Dagobah minus Ben, then Leia rescuing Han, Han/Chewie, then droids go to Jabba's but get captured, then Luke arrives.

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It is like the "Legendary Starkiller Ranch" thread is alive and with us today.  I can't remember how many times we bashed out the same ideas about the beginning of Jedi. 

This thread is a walk down memory lane.

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Sluggo said:

It is like the "Legendary Starkiller Ranch" thread is alive and with us today.  I can't remember how many times we bashed out the same ideas about the beginning of Jedi.

This thread is a walk down memory lane.

Was that thread archived anywhere?

It would be good to avoid duplication of effort.

 

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whatever happened to some of those old names? there is some good stuff there for sure.

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oh my god, i made the last post there, like nearly a year ago?! i remember writing that. urgghhhh.........aging too quickly.....

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This might sound evil beyond words but there are some shots of Ewoks firing weapons in (I can't believe I'm typing this) the Ewok films (specifically the second one) that might be recycled and reworked as elements for new shots in a ROTJ redux.

I can't post examples because I don't have the DVD's (even I wouldn't buy those things especially after seeing Caravan Of Garbage in the cinema without a disguise to hide behind).

If we can make some good come from the agony of watching them would be be doing good or just adding more grit to the already contaminated intimate lubricant?

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Bingowings said:

This might sound evil beyond words but there are some shots of Ewoks firing weapons in (I can't believe I'm typing this) the Ewok films (specifically the second one) that might be recycled and reworked as elements for new shots in a ROTJ redux.

I can't post examples because I don't have the DVD's (even I wouldn't buy those things especially after seeing Caravan Of Garbage in the cinema without a disguise to hide behind).

If we can make some good come from the agony of watching them would be be doing good or just adding more grit to the already contaminated intimate lubricant?

That sir, is a DAMN fine idea. I'll watch my copies tonight.

(I bought them for my kids)