Info: About this whole Indy 4 debate. — Page 2

As someone who has posted several suggestions in the SUGGESTION THREAD for KOTCS, I have to say many of the claims here are ignorant and unfounded. We aren't demanding the entire list be completed. In fact, if you'd take a moment to actually read the thread you'll see those with there own ideas actually discussing edits and cuts with those talented and knowledable individuals who are actually doing the near impossible task of making ths a good movie. AND we've been complimentry and appreciative every step of the way. Once or twice some of us may have gotten a bit TOO excited about seeing new updates, but we've since handled those issues. 

In fact, getting such a good list  of edits (which range in importance) has prompted several of us over on that thread to learn the tools of editing ourselves and try our own hand at it. 

It's clear many of you haven't even read through the thread and/or just need something to cry about.

I think the list we have is very thorough. I think it addresses several problems wth the film. Some of these are quite small and some are not, but every step of the way we've discussed the feasability of these edits with those doing the edits. Things like Ox dancing for instance is, for many of us, another goofy, kiddy scene in a film that has far too many goofy and kiddy scenes. 

The main problem with the alien stuff is not that there are aliens (or whatever interdemensional beings they're refered to as) but that there's no sense of peril or danger or character moments to ground the film in any manner to handle such a thing. Scenes that were over the top were made more so by the fact that there was never any sense of danger due to an over reliance on CGI and jsut plain bad filmmaking. Is is terrible to have a character in an adventure film swinging on vines? No. In fact its sort of expected. But seeing the way said scene ws executed makes it stand out as weightless and goofy. Are aliens THAT far out of left field for the Indy franchise? Nope. But the way they were presented here is just plain terrible.

jones1899 said:

I think the list we have is very thorough. I think it addresses several problems wth the film. Some of these are quite small and some are not, but every step of the way we've discussed the feasability of these edits with those doing the edits. Things like Ox dancing for instance is, for many of us, another goofy, kiddy scene in a film that has far too many goofy and kiddy scenes. 

The main problem with the alien stuff is not that there are aliens (or whatever interdemensional beings they're refered to as) but that there's no sense of peril or danger or character moments to ground the film in any manner to handle such a thing. Scenes that were over the top were made more so by the fact that there was never any sense of danger due to an over reliance on CGI and jsut plain bad filmmaking. Is is terrible to have a character in an adventure film swinging on vines? No. In fact its sort of expected. But seeing the way said scene ws executed makes it stand out as weightless and goofy. Are aliens THAT far out of left field for the Indy franchise? Nope. But the way they were presented here is just plain terrible.

 

How is a display of the fact that Ox has gone batty "goofy or kiddy"?  If that was the way he normally acted, then maybe I could see a problem.  But this just strikes me as an ignorant, knee-jerk reaction bred out of living with three SW films littered poop jokes and silly robots. 

I actually agree with the second paragraph quoted.  I think these things could've been executed much better--I'd love to see an edit where a real alien puppet/costume was somehow composited in instead of the CG alien.  These are real issues.  But there are a lot of just out-there stuff that totally misses the point of what the problems were. 

I do disagree that it's a near-impossible task to make this a good film--I find that to a large degree, it already is, but there are some glaring flaws that, if you're not able to put it in perspective with the big picture of what they actually got right, can totally overshadow your view of the film. 

Yeah, I totally disagree with the defense of Ox. In a movie filled with goofiness it's just uneeded AND takes away a lot of puzzle solving from Indy since Ox's has been there already. Also, that makes it 5!! people in this happy group adventure which lessens the sense of danger (if 5 people, most of them middle aged) make it through a trap or waterfall unscathed, then it must not be too dangerous. I didn't feel for Ox, since I didn't know how he was before he went insane and it sure wasn't funny. I've begun working on an edit and I'm doing everything I can to cut the Ox sillyness.

Just my opinion. But I do agree about the alien stuff. Not sure how I'm gonna fix that though.

I saw the movie in the theater and both me and my bro agreed Ox the retard was pretty much the Jar Jar Binks of Crystal Skull.

I don't know what i hated more him or Mac the triple agent.  Seriously this movie was as dumb as movies get and was a self parody of Indiana Jones. 

Indy surviving a nuclear blast in a fridge and riding through the air in it for a mile when it crashed and hit the ground.  He gets up and dusts himself off like nothing happened,lol.

The horrible opening with the Cgi gophers/prairie dogs.  Seriously i was looking for Bill Murrys Caddyshack character to show up.

Totally fake Cgi Jungle instead of going and shooting on Location.  For a movie that was supposed to be shot old school this movie was full of cgi.

Cate Blanchett as Natasha from Rocky and Bullwinkle, enough said.  

I'm surprised Lucas, Spielberg and Koepp still have jobs after this great turd of 2008 that somehow grossed almost 800 million dollars worldwide.  Trash cinema must be enjoyed by the entire human race then and i thought it was just us dumb Americans.

The things they got right were shooting on film and having Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones.  Returning to the Spirit of Raiders, and having Marian come back.   But the script sucked, the acting barely was passable except for Harrison. 

Would it have been possible to have someone else write if not direct this movie?  and why for the love of god have Lucas involved.  It used to be a good thing to have him involved on a movie, now you just know whatever he puts his name on is going to suck.

Raiders and Last Crusade were good because they had good screenplays.  Lawrence Kasden and Jeffrey Boam penned those.  I mean if they tried for twenty years to come up with a good script and a plossible mcguffin, maybe they should have just let things be.  But they saw the dollar signs. that is all there is to it.  They knew ahead of time this would be one of the most profitable motion pictures ever made.

The funny thing is what ended up on screen as Crystal Skull was better than all the other scripts that were thrown out or saved and patched into this one.  This was a patchwork script of half a dozen writers, we end up with a patchwork film that only works as a nostalgia vehicle in those scenes that were good or worked.

Frank Darabount's script had some really bad and cheesy scenes in it too.  I mean i know he directed Green Mile and Shawshank Redemption and wrote a pretty good script for young indy.  But ever since he did that bad b movie with that punisher actor i lost all faith in him as a writer or director.  He got lucky with Shawshank, lets just face facts.

But at least to me 60% of the movie was just plain bad.  Indiana Jones deserved better than that.  This movie in some ways was better and in others worse than Temple of Doom the worst of the old trilogy.

I rank it fourth overall.

We all know the prequels of star wars and Indiana Jones IV are far from being the worst films ever made.  There are plenty of worse movies.  But the Name Lucas or Spielberg in the old days being attached to a movie with a few exceptions meant better than their competition and a head above the rest.  There films were just so damn good, and entertaining and they put out a quality product.  Remember when the Lucasfilm name was synonymous with quality.  Then fast forward to the present in which the 2004 and 2006 sets of star wars are a joke that passed quality checking.

I don't begrudge Lucas and Spielberg the fun they had in making this film, it is very clear if you watch the behind the scenes material.  But big names like Lucas and Spielberg could have afforded a couple more rewrites on this script to tighten up the dialogue and take out all the stupid parts that ruined the movie.  Also Spielberg should have gone with his gut instinct on the Aliens he clearly knows his audience for Indiana Jones.  He also should have shot the film old school like he intended and used models and matte paintings like he said he was going to do.

I feel like Steven was forced to do this movie out of an obligation to George and to the fans.  He decided to film it and get it out of the way.  It was a nuisance to go everywhere he went and hear "whens the next indy movie coming out".  Like he said we the fans wanted it.

I personally would have hated to be Steven and not really be the boss on this picture and having Lucas backseat direct the movie the whole way.  In the end the parts of the movie that worked were probably Steven's doing and the bad parts were all Lucas.

There is a possibility the next one if made could be really good if they fix what did not work on this movie.  Remember the second in the old trilogy had some good moments too but ended up being overall crap.  I just don't know if audiences want an Indiana Jones V with Shia as Henry "indiana" Jones the III, in the title roll and if possible a small role for Harrison.  If the thing gets made before Lucas, Spielberg and Ford give up the ghost. For one thing Mutt would have to drop that nickame and assume the title of Indiana.  That is if he even changed his name to Jones.  Otherwise its an entirely seperate film series called the adventures of Mutt Williams, the only connection would be that Indy was his father.  I mean mutts a greeser and not an adventure seeker or acheologist.  His character would be chasing girls and racing hotrods or riding fast motorcycles or something.

jones1899 said:

Yeah, I totally disagree with the defense of Ox. In a movie filled with goofiness it's just uneeded AND takes away a lot of puzzle solving from Indy since Ox's has been there already. Also, that makes it 5!! people in this happy group adventure which lessens the sense of danger (if 5 people, most of them middle aged) make it through a trap or waterfall unscathed, then it must not be too dangerous. I didn't feel for Ox, since I didn't know how he was before he went insane and it sure wasn't funny. I've begun working on an edit and I'm doing everything I can to cut the Ox sillyness.

Just my opinion. But I do agree about the alien stuff. Not sure how I'm gonna fix that though.

Well, I mean, if that's what you think, I can't change your mind, but I just really don't understand the problem with showing how his mind has been messed up since he looked into the skull for so long.  Oh, well. 

Jeyl said:

Why I hate Indiana Jones.

Chapter 1

Shia La Bug Fudge as Indiana Jones' son. No thank you. The Last Crusade was enough of a family film even for an Indiana Jones movie, I don't need another one. And why a son? Can we have a hero movie where a big name hero has a daughter for once?

Umm...Live Free or Die Hard?  Hello?

It was a natural place for them to go; I dont' have any inherent problem with him having a son, and he actually ended up being a good character, IMO.

Chapter 2

Same old story all over again. Evil foreign army wants the ultimate power from an ancient artifact, they get it thanks to Indy, they unleash the power, get overwhelmed by it and get disintegrated and their remains fly up in the air. How original.

This is the Indy formula, like it or not.  The details of Spalko's death were similar to Raiders, probably even more similar than I would've liked, but basically, this is how an Indy movie goes.

Chapter 3

Monkeys hate communists. Why? Oh, and thank you for showing that clip where we see the Monkey that Cate Blanchett threw off a cliff and than having it grab onto a branch. I would have hated the movie if the villain did something that evil like killing a monkey.

Yeah, I'll bet you just about anything that follwing the monkey was Lucas's idea.  Don't have any inherent problems with the monkeys causing a ruckus, but the execution wasn't that great.

Chapter 4

The Aliens are a bunch of a**holes. I don't mind aliens. Honest. But the fact that when they leave they destroy any remnants that they ever existed is pretty selfish since it involved wiping out an entire society!

Ummm...okay....I'm not following where you're getting this, what the problem is, or how it ruins the movie.

Chapter 5

"Somewhere, you grandpa's laughing." Ya, and grandma is wondering if she ever had any impact on your life Indy. Thanks for leaving her out of the picture.

"Treat her right, kid.  You only get one, and you don't know for how long." 

The dialogue here was directly related to the issues that Indy and his dad had, and now he and his son are having.  However, I do think this should've been used as a place for real depth in the relationship.  The film needed its zeppelin conversation or "I thought I'd lost you, boy!" or "Indiana...let it go" scene, and " I don't know, why didn't you...Dad?"  deserved a moment for direct reconciliation. 

Chapter 6

Mutt being developed to be the next Indy. Totally not cashing in on Shia's surge in popularity. No way.

Dude, did you not see the ending?  That was the whole point of showing Indy snatch the hat away from him--they're saying that they're NOT gonna do that.

Chapter 7

Lucas and Spielberg thinking they're the only ones who should still make/write Indy movies. I'd love to see it if that wasn't the case.

 Well, it's their baby, and I think Spielberg SHOULD direct.  Lucas wasn't the only one who wrote.  I think there was too much of Lucas trying to shoehorn his newer tech into the film. 

None of these things that I've read have addressed all the good things in the film.  I saw the film three times in the theater, and two of these three  I knew exactly what I didn't like about it...and I still couldn't help but enjoy myself the whole time.  Some stuff they flat-out nail: the sequence in the graveyard/crypt is just terrific, IMO.  Yeah, there are problems, some of them fairly big, but there's a lot to like, and see the film just get trashed like a Batman and Robin or Attack of the Clones type failure just strikes me as stuff getting blown way out of proportion.

Perhaps not, but dead-on cinematography, good acting, and a wonderful mood/atmosphere certainly qualify for me.

Oh, and I'm assuming you hate Young Sherlock Holmes also, correct?