I'm starting to get a better picture of the kind of person you are, C3PX. If I had to guess, you follow the emotional expressions of people to understand the context and motivations behind a discussion. (I don't know if that guess is correct, but it seems like a good guess none the less.) Since I tried to avoid using emotional outbursts in this thread (so as not to offend either of you or lordjedi) it seems (to me) that you then had trouble understanding where I was coming from. Unfortunately, though, in response you tried to pounce on me and attack me (for some reason) by accusing my arguments of being weak (or some simple example of nit picking). If you ask me, however, that was an error on your part. Simply because I try to discuss these issues in a way that is reserved (because I previously respected you and lordjedi) does not mean that my arguments are weak.
I knew I really didn't want to continue debating in this thread. I knew it would just make me angry. I don't like getting angry with people I mostly agree with on issues (since I'd rather be encouraging with them if anything). As a result, I tried to be patient, logical, and cold with you, C3PX, and with lordjedi (for the most part). However, this approach of mine seemed to only make things worse (either for the reason I outlined in my above paragraph or for some other reason) and so I got bored and had no desire to continue.
But, C3PX, you pressed the issue in the video game thread . . . of all the fucking places. For all your talk above that tries to accuse me of being some evil imp that simply wants to argue useless points until I can somehow "triumph," you clearly show yourself to be an empty hypocrite who, in my opinion, can easily be argued as going after the same thing. So, to answer the earnest wishes of your petty little heart, here you go (I hope this makes you happy because I'm not happy anymore):
C3PX said:
Okay, so I went back to read the part where Lordjedi drove this discussion into the realm of insanity by defending himself against Tiptup accusing him of wanting to commit terrorism. Come on Tip, you are just being ridiculous on this one!! This exchange is NOTHING like you are making it out to be.Tiptup said:
"So, you believe, then, that all your actions are completely in line with a supreme model of daily perfection? I understand you're a person that generally take things seriously, but, if you were to honestly analyze every action and attitude of your life, you don't believe that there is even one tiny change that you could make with yourself to potentially be even better? :)"Lordjedi's response:
"Of course not, but I don't go around planning and executing attacks on people simply because of where they're from. Hell, I don't plan and execute attacks period. There's plenty of people I disagree with, but I would never wish death on them or try to kill them myself. I don't believe these actions are in line with daily perfection. I believe these actions are in line with a civilized society."
Lj simply said that he is not in line with a "supreme model of daily perfection" but that he is also not the one commiting the acts of terrorism, so whether or not he is living his life perfectly, has nothing to do with the fact that terrorist attacks are taking place in the world, because he and his actions have nothing to do with the attacks taking place. He also adds that even though he disagrees with people, he would never dream of wishing death on them, which has nothing to do with perfection, but with being civilized. In other words, the terrorists are the ones being uncivilized, they will keep doing the same kind of attacks again and again, whether or not he reads about it in the paper each and everytime wont make a bit of a difference.
Blah, blah, blah. You're talking to me as if I missed what LJ was saying there. I know what he was saying just fine, thanks. Seriously, get a clue: Yes, he's saying he's not absolutely perfect. Yes, he saying he's not a terrorist. The question is, smart one, why he was saying what he said. To the degree you guessed at what that was (above), you have actually agreed with me in your own fucking worthless post! (Good Lord!)
If you're too slow to follow what I'm saying (which now seems likely to me as I now look back at other arguments I have gotten into with you), your above statement is the exact OPPOSITE of proving that I was "just being ridiculous on this one!!" or that my exchange with lordjedi is "NOTHING" like what I was "making it out to be." Here's what you actually say (above):
"whether or not he is living his life perfectly, has nothing to do with the fact that terrorist attacks are taking place in the world"
"his actions have nothing to do with the attacks taking place."
"even though he disagrees with people, he would never dream of wishing death on them"
"the terrorists are the ones being uncivilized, they will keep doing the same kind of attacks again and again, whether or not he reads about it in the paper"
Yes! Thank you, C3PX! You just hit my proverbial nail on the fucking head! While I can't really say for sure what lordjedi was actually arguing, even you say that the most basic context seems to have him defending himself from the accusation that he might be partly responsible for terrorist attacks (his and your insistence that his actions do nothing to support terrorism). Since that is, at every point, obviously and solely contrasted with (and aimed at) my philosophical questions about caring more and perfect living, that would CLEARLY imply (in the context of the discussion by that point) that he (and now you) believed I was accusing his actions of supporting or inciting terrorism with those very same questions.
The fact that you are trying to argue against this (when your own argument is fighting against you) tells me that you aren't even trying to be fair here, C3PX. In fact, if you were honest, lordjedi even went far beyond how you tried to portray his words. He actually responds as if I'm lumping him in with people who "plan and execute attacks." Now maybe that's a mistake on his part, maybe he didn't mean to defend himself as if I were the one accusing him of that, but considering the way he was strongly contrasting his statements with my words, that seems the most logical context for me to assume. I don't get where you think you have the fucking right to get on your high horse and pretend I don't know what I'm talking about here (particularly when you now say he's saying the exact same thing I said he was saying).
In the post where lordjedi said these things, he made even stronger statements that clinched his meaning in my mind (statements you didn't even address). Seriously, C3PX, how many times and in how many ways does he have to deny he's being a terrorist in direct contrast to my words before reasonability allows me to assume he's responding to my statements and questions? Observe:
lordjedi said:Tiptup said:
I'm not saying the world is an easy place to figure out, and I'm not even sure where we would start acting better, but when I honestly look at myself, I know I'm not working with pure motives or pure judgments. To automatically assume I have achieved perfection when it comes to caring about people that face the evils of this world is not something I can do.
I'm not even going to suggest that all of my motives and judgments are entirely pure, but nothing about them involves wanting to take the lives of others simply because of their ideals. What I said was that those muslim terrorists deserve what they get because they are terrorists. Just like all terrorists deserve what they get.
He says it plain as day here: he asserts that "nothing" about his "motives or judgements" involves him wanting to take "the lives of others simply because of their ideals."
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, genius, but to my mind he's clearly making a connection of some sort: He has denied being a terrorist, at multiple points he has denied wanting to kill people over idealogical disagreements, and here he has denied his "motivations and judgements" as leading to terrorism. The question for you is, what are his denials being placed in contrast with? Well, in case you didn't notice by now, he's been aiming each and every denial (in that post of his) directly at my words and nothing else! (For crying out loud!)
Now maybe I'm wrong about lordjedi's actual thinking. Maybe he was denying his role as a terrorist in regard to some tangetial thought (contained in my words) that he simply forgot to mention. Maybe he didn't think I was accusing him of having a role in supporting terrorism and it sadly just ended up sounding that way. Perhaps he simply wanted to respond to my words with his denials in a way that was unrelated to what I meant with those SAME words. Either way, that's not my fucking fault! You don't have the right to call me a dick because other people have trouble keeping track of obvious contexts when they try to communicate. To the contrary, it's the job of other people to provide a proper context for their statements when the most basic context of the discussion (at the point the statements are made) might confuse the meaning. In this case, o bright one, lordjedi had MULTIPLE opportunities to state the true reason for why he felt the need to deny being a terrorist. EACH AND EVERY TIME, he merely aimed his denial at my words and did stated NOTHING else in terms of context.
In case you haven't noticed by now. I fucking hate it when people put words in my mouth! I tried to be a good boy and not get angry when this discussion first went off into this retarded territory, I tried to remain polite, but you couldn't let it go, could you, C3PX? You have to act like you're some high and mighty arbiter of the truth. Well fuck that. I'm through with trying to be friendly with you now. You're just another person with stupid opinions on a stupid forum and I could care less about you. Seriously, this just goes to show where trying to be nice always gets me. Most people just aren't worth it.
Uhg . . . to me this is all absolutely irrational . . . . All I did was ask a simple, little, purely-philosophical question about whether or not the world might be a "better place" if we all simply "cared a little more" (which was certainly on-topic as far as I can tell), and then you two start responding as if I'm accusing everyone on this forum (or in the "world") of being terrorists!? Now, to top it all off, I have to defend myself from a person who wants to accuse me of being a person who makes "outrageous assumptions" because I supposedly like to have fucking fights with people? What the fuck?!
In C3PX's world I actually enjoy the process of alienating people (people who I otherwise I would prefer to be friends with)? In C3PX's world I'm someone who doesn't let go of issues because I simply can't stop being an asshole that enjoys infuriating others with my worthless disagreements? And, in C3PX's world, I'm the one who has some irrational need to prove myself as somehow more "right" than everybody else? I suppose I do those things to a degree, yeah, but not so much more than your everyday, average person does. To the degree I discuss disagreements furtehr than other people, I'm fairly certain I actually like to challenge and discover truth and enjoy that process. To the degree I'm admittedly a dick, I actually try to keep myself from getting heated and expressing the kinds of offensive statements that "start fights." I find that fights unnecessarily distract me from my pursuit of logic and truth. I also don't like fights because they push away and depress people I would otherwise like to be friends with. I don't know where ANYTHING I have done in this thread or other threads proves otherwise.
Well, at any rate, you wanted a real fight C3PX, and now you've got one. Whatever . . . .
Oh, wait, here's some more thoughts in your post that should probably reply to (for your sake):
C3PX said:
I also might add that a "supreme model of perfection" is a really odd thing to bring into the discussion? Does somebody have to read every news story and weep for every death in order to live a perfect life? After all, what is a "supreme model of daily perfection" and who sets the standards for it? And when did the notion of "perfection" or "purity" become such a pivotal part of this discussion?
What people need to do in order to live their own "perfect life" is unknown to me and irrelevant to what I was discussing (it's a purely hypothetical basis for an ethical point). My question to lordjedi was to simply ask if the world might be even a slightly better place if we all simply did our own little parts a little bit better and, specifically, we all cared a little bit more about certain things than we currently do at present. To answer your question, there's absolutely nothing "odd" about bringing that question up in this thread. Do you want me to quote your original post and post #7 of this thread and tell you how my questions were on topic?
To the degree I mentioned "absolute purity" that was an attempt of mine to show lordjedi another way to think of my original question (which he kept refusing to understand and strangely acted defensive and overly-argumentative towards). I don't see how that's so "odd" in the asinine way you're trying to accuse me of.
Again, I hate it when people put fucking words into my mouth. As far as I now regard this thread, you and lordjedi weren't even fucking trying to understand what I was asking and what I was saying. lordjedi just wanted to feel good as he attempted to correct a person on this yet once more, and you were probably still angry at me over your stupid mistakes in past discussions. Oh well, whether that reflects reality or not, in the future I would ask that you don't apply your willfully stupid misunderstandings to my thoughts when I've, in actuality, gone out of my way to state the opposite.
Good Lord.
C3PX said:
After the above quoted exchange took place, and the topic changed to definitions of purity and perfection, the thread kind of crashed and burned, and became a long winded argument that I am still not clear as to what it is an argument about. If there is still a need to prove where this thing went off-topic, I'd say your misunderstanding of LJ's comment (which was clear as day to me) and the mention of a "supreme model of perfect" is the precise spot, but who really cares?)
Oh, another lovely thought excercise from the genius who thinks he knows everything about me and about my arguments.
If you want to know where this thread first went into the realm of stupidity, it was before the point you're thinking of. I'll quote you the two posts where it first veered off course:
lordjedi said:Tiptup said:lordjedi said:
Other than that, it's yet another terrorist attack. What more can be said?
That if the world were a better place . . . we might care a little more? :)
But who says we don't? Just because we don't talk about it here, doesn't mean we don't care. There's plenty of things I care about that I never discuss here.
If the world were a better place, terrorists assholes like that wouldn't exist.
And:
C3PX said:Tiptup said:lordjedi said:
Other than that, it's yet another terrorist attack. What more can be said?
That if the world were a better place . . . we might care a little more? :)
I don't think it is an issue of mankind as a whole (or the world), caring is something that has to be worked out on a more personal level.
I asked a simple-to-understand, purely-philosophical question and you both somehow managed to respond with very incorrect portrayals of it:
1. Where did I say anything in my question that required lordjedi to refute the notion that we don't care at all? (I was merely proposing that we might have the ability to care "a little more.")
2. Where did my question require lordjedi to inform me that the world would be a better place without terrorists? (First, that was already an important, tacit assumption of my question. Second, I'm not going to bother asking if terrorists are going to be better people because they don't care about ethical, philosophical questions like these. I asked lordjedi my question because I thought he would care about it . . . boy, I was fucking wrong there.)
3. Where did my statement require you, C3PX, to refute the notion that when "mankind as a whole" cares, that caring is always on a person by person basis when we consider the most fundamental level? (First, when I mentioned "the world" it was clearly referring to the possibility of it being a somewhat better place, as a basis to propose how each of us might be somewhat better people and therefore care more. Second, when I mentioned "we" caring, I don;t see how it was hard for you to imagine that I meant all of us caring as specific individuals.)
You know, one thing that you, C3PX, and lordjedi both seem to share in common (if you ask me) is the way you two both love to go around correcting others (I guess it makes you both feel authoritative and smart?). When I see something I disagree with, I try to make sure the person is actual saying what I'm responding to or else I will ask a question or provide my own context. You two wonderments, however, assume ridiculous things about my statements and then directly, clearly, and undeniably respond as if my statements support the ridiculous interpretations you then go on to respond to. In comparison to the "outragious assumptions" you have accused me of, C3PX, you are far more guilty of the same. As Jesus said, "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" All I say is, "If you're interested in people being friendly and gracious, why do you even want to argue contentious shit like this?" I find this whole post of yours (that I'm now responding to) to be a waste of time.
Oh well, to be honest, in the replies I made to both of these statements, I didn't bother to correct the tangential stupidity of lordjedi's reply and your reply. In hindsight, it's now pretty obvious that I should have (it would have avoided all of the nonsense this thread exploded into). Instead, I was worried about being nice (and worthless shit like that); instead, I tried to gently nudge lordjedi back to my actual question and didn't try to correct him. That was a dumb mistake. I've now more than learned my lesson. All this time today I could have been arguing something substantial, but I've instead been busy answering what C3PX cares about. It all started when C3PX ran to the aide and defense of lordjedi and became a fool in the process. He then pushed the fight he started to a further extreme and forces me to say and argue why he's a fool outright. Wonderful. This was a lot of fucking fun.
Oh, and, C3PX, if you simply try to respond to this post with one of your brilliantly cheeky statements, I just want you to know that, this time, that won't be good enough. I'm not going to politely respond to statements like "are you finished" or "just drop it already," because this time you can't deny being the aggressor (as I believe you were in our past "fights" as well).
You're the one who undeniably started the shit this time around. You're also the one who clearly perpetuated this fight and you're also the one who clearly wouldn't let it go even after I had moved on. This time you're going to finish what you started: either you run away like a coward and refrain from replying, you tell me (and rationally prove) where I'm wrong here (with clear logic), or you simply admit that you actually didn't have the right to chastise me—notably in the ferocious manner you used in this thread. I can accept silence, the fact that I might be wrong, and the admission of a mistake from you. Anything else you say would (as far as I can tell) simply be weaseling out of a fight you started, and, in that event, you'll simply be revealing yourself to be just one more fool on the internet who stretched himself too far (and "a dick" as you so delightfully called me earlier).