The prequels were always going to suck the writing was already on the wall in 1997 with the special editions. The prequels would be made to fit the special editions and not the original trilogy as originally released.
As a concept they suck, they are tonally and thematically different. Lack real heroes to root for, or any magic of any kind. They also lack emotion and when you left the theater you did not feel as though you were taking part in viewing something special or being uplifted like 1977's Star Wars.
Lucas should have moved ahead with the story after Return of the Jedi. Still now that Star Wars has become a shit kiddy series and is basically an advertisement for a product line, and become souless and sterile and safe no longer a daring series breaking new ground.
I want nothing to do with it.
I can imagine the future adeventures of Luke and company after Return of The Jedi. I can think of the idea of Lukes father as portrayed excellently in the oot and forget the Hayden/Vader obmination that Derailed the real star wars saga and story.
“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.
okay, take deep breaths with me...in...out...Better? now on the mark walking out of theater from episode I and not feeling the magic, that's a no brainer. of course u won't relive that agian. that is a once in a lifetime thing! you couldn't expect a repeat.
I'm not saying i hated TPM btw.
and if its that bad for you, dont bother to post anymore.
skyjedi2005 said:The prequels were always going to suck the writing was already on the wall in 1997 with the special editions. The prequels would be made to fit the special editions and not the original trilogy as originally released.
As a concept they suck, they are tonally and thematically different. Lack real heroes to root for, or any magic of any kind. They also lack emotion and when you left the theater you did not feel as though you were taking part in viewing something special or being uplifted like 1977's Star Wars.
Lucas should have moved ahead with the story after Return of the Jedi. Still now that Star Wars has become a shit kiddy series and is basically an advertisement for a product line, and become souless and sterile and safe no longer a daring series breaking new ground.
Hear hear!
Once he'd done what he'd done in the SE you could tell he'd lost connection with Star Wars, lost sight of what Star Wars was, lost understanding of it. Once that was the case he couldn't make new Star Wars films that worked as Star Wars. And what he added in the SE was shallow and weak, which was a hint that what was to come in the prequels was going to be shallow and weak.
TPM was the best of them, the most natural and human and heartfelt of the PT and it had Liam Neeson doing a great job. But it was still a weak shallow film. The other two aren't worth the scrapings out of the bowl of a toilet. Feelingless crap. And so uninvolving. With characters you don't care about -Ewan's Kenobi was the best of them and I still didn't find myself feeling much for him. Those two films were genuinely awful. Terrible insincere unfeeling things. And all the prequels managed to simultaneously dumb down Star Wars while making it more pretentious.
rcb said:okay, take deep breaths with me...in...out...Better? now on the mark walking out of theater from episode I and not feeling the magic, that's a no brainer. of course u won't relive that agian. that is a once in a lifetime thing! you couldn't expect a repeat.
I'm not saying i hated TPM btw.
and if its that bad for you, dont bother to post anymore.
Why should he not post? He's got a perfectly valid viewpoint and he's saying stuff that needs saying. What Lucas has done to Star Wars is abomination and it needs to be criticised again and again and again. Such criticism is far more valid than people praising what Lucas has done more recently, and there's no end of such mindless worshipful praise.
As for the magic, no it wasn't a once in a lifetime thing. It happened three times with Star Wars. Each film of the old trilogy was magical. That has not been the case with the new films.
Vaderisnothayden said:Why should he not post?...
Why? Because he disagrees with some peoples opinions, that is why! Because he is against, George, and the PT, and the (mostly) finished version of the OT. How can anybody go about their lives and live happily when there are people out there on the internets that disagree with them? The voices of opposition must be silenced! We cannot give up until George's honor has been defended and all tongues concede that he IS the Master Story teller of our age, the ages that have come before us, and all the ages that are yet to come!
Long live the Master Story teller! Long live his wonderful movies and television shows! Long live his great beard and his flannel shirts! Death to his enemies and opposition! Death to the incompleted versions of his films! Death to those who obsess over them and fail to see the light!
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
C3PX said:Vaderisnothayden said:Why should he not post?...
Why? Because he disagrees with some peoples opinions, that is why! Because he is against, George, and the PT, and the (mostly) finished version of the OT. How can anybody go about their lives and live happily when there are people out there on the internets that disagree with them? The voices of opposition must be silenced! We cannot give up until George's honor has been defended and all tongues concede that he IS the Master Story teller of our age, the ages that have come before us, and all the ages that are yet to come!
Long live the Master Story teller! Long live his wonderful movies and television shows! Long live his great beard and his flannel shirts! Death to his enemies and opposition! Death to the incompleted versions of his films! Death to those who obsess over them and fail to see the light!
ROTFL! Good one. :)
In all seriousness, I think both sides need to get off of each others backs though. There is nothing wrong with those guys who enjoy the PT or even the Clone Wars CG show, if they enjoy them, then I think that is just wonderful for them. For my part, I really have no interest in those things, SW being something I have been very fond of since I was a kid, it does kind of irk me to see it shifted through such an awkward transformation. But there is really nothing I can do about it. It kind of sucks to see Star Wars fandom split in two, but what can you expect when one side is constantly catered to while the otherside is even denied a proper DVD release of the movies they care about. Out of all the mass of Star Wars DVDs on the market, and their are a zillion of them, the only three films we care about the ones with the single worst quality release of literally any DVD on the market today (save for those $1 crap DVDs you find in the dollar store, and even some of those are anamorphic).
So, I cannot tolerate these idiots who come in here and tell us to shut up and get over it. Yeah, maybe we need to shut up because we sound like broken records, and griping wont solve anything. But it is easy to tell someone else to shut up when you are fat and happy and completely content with the movies you have been given, and we are stuck with leftovers with dog piss on them. Some chick came in here some time ago and told us to shut the fuck up, and preached to us about tolerance. We are not hurting her. There are plenty of sites for her type, this is our turf, you're welcome if you please, but keep in mind, this is where we come to vent our frustration. By coming in here and saying stupid things, worshiping the SW that we see as crappy, and grouching at us for not loving them as you do, just makes us dislike you as much as the PT, SE, and SW.
Unfortunately, I feel with the starting of the Clone Wars TV show, which may very well be a tiny step in the right direction, a lot of us here are really tearing into George and the PT and the Clone Wars far more than necessary. I don't blame fans who are more willing to eat shit (no offense guys, I've eaten my fair share of shit over the years and even liked it sometimes too) for getting irritated at the constant array of Lucas hate (but in all fairness, if it bothers you, you might just want to steer clear of threads titled, "When did the prequels officially suck?"
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
C3PX said:Vaderisnothayden said:Why should he not post?...
Why? Because he disagrees with some peoples opinions, that is why! Because he is against, George, and the PT, and the (mostly) finished version of the OT. How can anybody go about their lives and live happily when there are people out there on the internets that disagree with them? The voices of opposition must be silenced! We cannot give up until George's honor has been defended and all tongues concede that he IS the Master Story teller of our age, the ages that have come before us, and all the ages that are yet to come!
Long live the Master Story teller! Long live his wonderful movies and television shows! Long live his great beard and his flannel shirts! Death to his enemies and opposition! Death to the incompleted versions of his films! Death to those who obsess over them and fail to see the light!
Damn, man. That was classic. I wish I could buy you a beer for that.
You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
rcb said:okay, take deep breaths with me...in...out...Better? now on the mark walking out of theater from episode I and not feeling the magic, that's a no brainer. of course u won't relive that agian. that is a once in a lifetime thing! you couldn't expect a repeat.
I'm not saying i hated TPM btw.
and if its that bad for you, dont bother to post anymore.
While I do agree that that rcb was a numbscull for ask skyjedi to silence, who are you, TFN? You do have to admit skyjedi, it is not possible to make a film of the caliber of ANH again. That was a one in a universe event,. But yeah, TPM should've been a lot better.
All of the prequels could have been better- and they didn't miss the mark by just a few inches, they missed it by miles.
The main point is, I don't think skyjedi or anybody would give a crap about how much the prequels suck, if the OOT was given a proper restoration and release.
Vaderisnothayden said:rcb said:okay, take deep breaths with me...in...out...Better? now on the mark walking out of theater from episode I and not feeling the magic, that's a no brainer. of course u won't relive that agian. that is a once in a lifetime thing! you couldn't expect a repeat.
I'm not saying i hated TPM btw.
and if its that bad for you, dont bother to post anymore.
Why should he not post? He's got a perfectly valid viewpoint and he's saying stuff that needs saying. What Lucas has done to Star Wars is abomination and it needs to be criticised again and again and again. Such criticism is far more valid than people praising what Lucas has done more recently, and there's no end of such mindless worshipful praise.
As for the magic, no it wasn't a once in a lifetime thing. It happened three times with Star Wars. Each film of the old trilogy was magical. That has not been the case with the new films.
i'm srry i lost my temper. but you have to see where i'm coming from. its kinda annoying when people diss the PT as if it was not part of the saga. and saying he expected the same magic when walking out of TPM, is a very retorical statement.
rcb said:Vaderisnothayden said:rcb said:okay, take deep breaths with me...in...out...Better? now on the mark walking out of theater from episode I and not feeling the magic, that's a no brainer. of course u won't relive that agian. that is a once in a lifetime thing! you couldn't expect a repeat.
I'm not saying i hated TPM btw.
and if its that bad for you, dont bother to post anymore.
Why should he not post? He's got a perfectly valid viewpoint and he's saying stuff that needs saying. What Lucas has done to Star Wars is abomination and it needs to be criticised again and again and again. Such criticism is far more valid than people praising what Lucas has done more recently, and there's no end of such mindless worshipful praise.
As for the magic, no it wasn't a once in a lifetime thing. It happened three times with Star Wars. Each film of the old trilogy was magical. That has not been the case with the new films.
i'm srry i lost my temper. but you have to see where i'm coming from. its kinda annoying when people diss the PT as if it was not part of the saga. and saying he expected the same magic when walking out of TPM, is a very retorical statement.
Sorry, I don't see where you're coming from. The PT deserves to be dissed and it isn't part of the saga. And I don't see what's so rhetorical about saying he expected the same magic from TPM.
What Lucas did in the prequels was a betrayal of Star Wars and an insult to all of us. Those films don't fit into the same universe as the originals and as such they don't belong counted as part of the original saga. Had Lucas made the prequels properly, faithful to the spirit of the original Star Wars, then they would be part of the saga. But the ones he made aren't. What happened with the prequels was an abomination and needs to be criticised. I can understand somebody liking TPM to an extent, but I cannot understand anybody liking ROTS and AOTC. Those two films are absolute shite and soulless and don't deserve to be liked. Their shallow soullessness is disgusting. Art should have soul and feeling and humanity. Otherwise it's worthless and pointless.
Vaderisnothayden said:rcb said:Vaderisnothayden said:rcb said:okay, take deep breaths with me...in...out...Better? now on the mark walking out of theater from episode I and not feeling the magic, that's a no brainer. of course u won't relive that agian. that is a once in a lifetime thing! you couldn't expect a repeat.
I'm not saying i hated TPM btw.
and if its that bad for you, dont bother to post anymore.
Why should he not post? He's got a perfectly valid viewpoint and he's saying stuff that needs saying. What Lucas has done to Star Wars is abomination and it needs to be criticised again and again and again. Such criticism is far more valid than people praising what Lucas has done more recently, and there's no end of such mindless worshipful praise.
As for the magic, no it wasn't a once in a lifetime thing. It happened three times with Star Wars. Each film of the old trilogy was magical. That has not been the case with the new films.
i'm srry i lost my temper. but you have to see where i'm coming from. its kinda annoying when people diss the PT as if it was not part of the saga. and saying he expected the same magic when walking out of TPM, is a very retorical statement.
Sorry, I don't see where you're coming from. The PT deserves to be dissed and it isn't part of the saga. And I don't see what's so rhetorical about saying he expected the same magic from TPM.
What Lucas did in the prequels was a betrayal of Star Wars and an insult to all of us. Those films don't fit into the same universe as the originals and as such they don't belong counted as part of the original saga. Had Lucas made the prequels properly, faithful to the spirit of the original Star Wars, then they would be part of the saga. But the ones he made aren't. What happened with the prequels was an abomination and needs to be criticised. I can understand somebody liking TPM to an extent, but I cannot understand anybody liking ROTS and AOTC. Those two films are absolute shite and soulless and don't deserve to be liked. Their shallow soullessness is disgusting. Art should have soul and feeling and humanity. Otherwise it's worthless and pointless.
its hard to deny it not being part of the saga in my opinion. there are a lot of inacuracies with it and the OT. but in general it answers the questions we all had and filled in the gaps.
and how can u not see the its not retorical about expecting the same magic in the TPM as in ANH. ANH was a turn in movie making and how we think. You already knew what to expect, somewat, of TPM.
What Lucas did in the prequels was a betrayal of Star Wars and an insult to all of us. Those films don't fit into the same universe as the originals and as such they don't belong counted as part of the original saga.
The fact is the PT were a little letdown to me for the exact opposite of what you said: I pretty much already knew all about the main story (hell, even the final Anakin/Obi duel surrounded by lava was known for 20 years). No real surprise, appart some annoying and useless ones.
So I understand when people say that they don't like the PT and that they prefer ignoring them, but you can't say that they do not fit into the same univers. (well, yes, you can say that...but I disagree: ;) ) because it is the back story we already knew for ages, it's just the way of telling it that was (mostly) poorly done and missed good opportunities.
Maybe the whole saga is more interesting for younger generations that see them in chronological order for the first time, I don't know.
And in this case it's better to end the saga with the better movies! So all in all, it's not such a bad thing that the PT is not as good as the OT!
rcb said:You already knew what to expect, somewat, of TPM.
No, we didn't! Seriously, there was NO excuse for the PT to suck as bad as they did. It didn't have to be slapstick and over the top, full of bad acting and even worse directing, didn't have to be done like that at all. Some real writers and a real director could have made this thing turn out completely different, and no doubt for the better. Can't keep using the stupid excuse of, "What, did you expect it to live up to the originals?" That isn't the point, it didn't have to live up to the originals, it just had to be good, and it wasn't.
We have to stop making lame excuses for mediocracy. Modern society is doing way too much of that.
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
you expected that? come on! when i first saw ANH and compared it to TPM there was no contest. and i didn't find the acting corny, the plot was good and actually gave a better view of the sith.
okay, srry, i guess it did deliver for me. damn! i can't comeback on that!
LOL, your post cracks me up man. When you say "You expected that? Come on!" I can only assume you are refering to me saying, "it didn't have to live up to the originals, it just had to be good..."
Why is it so unreasonable for them to have been halfway decent movies? Why is that a "you expected that? Come on!" As if wishing for a movie to be enjoyable is too much.
Seriously, I said this in another thread, I will say it again, I really think there is some sort of a movement in which crappiness is becoming something to be proud of, becoming the "in" thing. I foresee a grim future for entertainment, "Oh, this is so fantastic I love it!!! It is so amazing, so... so... so... mediocre!!!", "... this movie is not without its faults, it was wonderfully written, wonderfully acted, wonderfully directed, wonderfully filmed, wonderfully executed in every way. All in all, it was just too damn good, and for that, I have to give it... two thumbs down! There was a lot of potential there, but in the end it really managed to disappoint, it just wasn't near crappy enough."
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
What it comes down to is that prequel trilogy defenders will say star wars was always a kids movie series. That it was always dumb popcorn cinema, and Lucas backs them up in this.
To be honest the oot trilogy was written better and acted better as well as directed better. But was still popcorn films. Nobody ever said they were arthouse cinema, or had serious themes and issues discussed in them. These were movies like old hollywood, not serious film. They were basically an A picture upgrade in terms in budget and effects, writing and acting of the flash gordon serials.
We as an older audience (i'm of course referring to us oot fans) are accused of Looking at the films through rose colored glasses. That these films were overhyped and not as good as we remember them being if we sit down now as adults and attentively watch them and out them under the same microscope as the prequels.
Which i disagree with totally because the Phantom Menace and its sequels do not grab me from their opening scene and suck me into the story, Like the original trilogy or raiders of the lost ark can do even if i am viewing them for the 100th time as if it was the first time because the quality holds up after multiple viewings. I mean if it could be quantified the originals were a hundred times more creative, original and just plain damn fun movies to watch. The prequels are not even in the same level of quality. seeing as there are better modern films that are more entertaining than they are, and thirty years from now no one will remember the lackluster prequels. And the cgi will look far more dated the the effects of the oot.
The prequels for me get more boring and uninteresting with every viewing so much so that they sit on the shelf and i never feel compelled to watch them.
Cgi these days is the least of Hollywood's problems though it has allowed them to get lazy.
Movie directing is almost a joke these days, scriptwriting is worse than it has ever been. I very much agree with anyone who thinks mediocrity and profit are synomous with Hollywood today.
Bankrupt creatively, sequels, prequels, reboots, and a slew of badly made and badly produced comic book films with an occasional gem.
That being said movies have yet to stoop to the same low as television standards have, Reality tv anyone?
Tv is Tits, Asses and Explosions and, sex and killing and more sex and killing. It is often hard to find a narrative or story thread between those and the tv advertisements. Plus movies are the same too. They have the flashy colors and cgi, and the Shaky cam and quick cuts in the editing.
There are a lot of films that are cool and modern and flashy, but competely lack any decernable substance other than garbage. Dumb entertainments and twerp cinema are the name of the game, and if you refuse to turn off your brain and enjoy yourself for 2 hours and want quality, then you can go fuck yourself. Seems to be the unspoken feeling in tinseltown these days.
Anyhow this is the way it is. There was a golden era in sci fi and fantasy, a golden era in movies, and a golden era in the comic books and that has passed us. The moderns can try to ape the classics all they want and fail at every turn. The seventies and Eighties with a few exceptions were the last great era in motion pictures. There is very little now to distinguish movies from music videos, or video games.
To me movies stopped being an artform when they got rid of traditional effects, traditional animation and Stopped using film. The few still doing so should be commended because the Lucas types out there are going to destroy it with their great modern advances that forget storytelling and craftsmanship come first.
The one word that sums up todays movies is "disposable". You watch and enjoy them for 2 hours and then forget them, if you can even sit through how awful most of them are or even keep you in your seat. At lot of people talked about wanting to walk out of the prequels or Indiana Jones IV for instance. I almost walked out of Star Trek nemesis and will probably walk out after paying to see the JJ trek film in disgust.
I felt i should have asked for my money back after seeing Indiana Jones IV, as Spielberg saying it was going to be like the other 3 movies was false advertising. The cgi and bad acting like the prequels ruined the movie for me. Lucas has said the movies are supposed to be that way, well the george lucas who was interviewed during the making of Return of the JEdi would disagree with his current self. He is no longer the same person.
He is the guy who is going back and ruining his own best works seeing flaws in them no one else sees. I just wish he would stop. He is ruining his legacy and destroying star wars.
I like to remember George for the original star wars trilogy that is currently unavailable on dvd in remotely acceptable quality, not the George Lucas who Made the Phantom Menace and other ancillary works for profit alone and for a testing ground for cgi.
“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.
To me movies stopped being an artform when they got rid of traditional effects, traditional animation and Stopped using film. The few still doing so should be commended because the Lucas types out there are going to destroy it with their great modern advances that forget storytelling and craftsmanship come first.
I think you're partialy right, I mean, you can't really blame the tools, it's the way we use them. When directors will stop over playing with their new toys, or using them for low cost production, and concentrate on originality and storytelling, the result will be better, I'm optimist. Some already did nice works IMO.
This is obviously just a phase, it'll pass as it become old and tired. Which it is already beginning to do. Since the nineties with films like Jurassic Park, movie maker have begun to really wow people with special effect. IMHO, Jurassic Park used them very well, not to show off, but as a tool to telling the story. Somewhere along the line, it feels like a of film makers have started going crazy with the special effects to a degree were they take priority way above story telling. I have an older relative who loves going to the movies, so he is often the one we'd turn to to ask, "Is that movie worth seeing?" and it got to one point were he gave the same review for almost every film, "Eh, wasn't very good, but the special effects were excellent! Worth going to see it for those alone!" The problem is, special effects have taken a huge leap from the eighties to present, but they are old news now. It is not that they are still improving by leaps and bounds, in fact, my feelings are that they are beginning to look pretty cheap.
It also feels like a way for story tellers to get a bit ridiulous and lazy. You now have situations were things that were way beyond the realm of possibilty are now very possible, but some of these things are so fantastic and so silly, it just looks weird to see them happening in a lve action film based in the world we live in. Indy IV with the man eating ants and the monkeys are a good example. In the past a film maker wanting to do something like that would be grounded to reality by not being able to pull it off, now sky is the limit. You can do ridiculous things like that and wow some people with your amazing special effects, while breaking the suspension of disbelief for others. "Okay, there are giant vicious man eating ants carrying people away, what am I watching? The Mummy?" You really can take things too far, and we are doing it all the time now.
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
rcb said:Vaderisnothayden said:rcb said:Vaderisnothayden said:rcb said:okay, take deep breaths with me...in...out...Better? now on the mark walking out of theater from episode I and not feeling the magic, that's a no brainer. of course u won't relive that agian. that is a once in a lifetime thing! you couldn't expect a repeat.
I'm not saying i hated TPM btw.
and if its that bad for you, dont bother to post anymore.
Why should he not post? He's got a perfectly valid viewpoint and he's saying stuff that needs saying. What Lucas has done to Star Wars is abomination and it needs to be criticised again and again and again. Such criticism is far more valid than people praising what Lucas has done more recently, and there's no end of such mindless worshipful praise.
As for the magic, no it wasn't a once in a lifetime thing. It happened three times with Star Wars. Each film of the old trilogy was magical. That has not been the case with the new films.
i'm srry i lost my temper. but you have to see where i'm coming from. its kinda annoying when people diss the PT as if it was not part of the saga. and saying he expected the same magic when walking out of TPM, is a very retorical statement.
Sorry, I don't see where you're coming from. The PT deserves to be dissed and it isn't part of the saga. And I don't see what's so rhetorical about saying he expected the same magic from TPM.
What Lucas did in the prequels was a betrayal of Star Wars and an insult to all of us. Those films don't fit into the same universe as the originals and as such they don't belong counted as part of the original saga. Had Lucas made the prequels properly, faithful to the spirit of the original Star Wars, then they would be part of the saga. But the ones he made aren't. What happened with the prequels was an abomination and needs to be criticised. I can understand somebody liking TPM to an extent, but I cannot understand anybody liking ROTS and AOTC. Those two films are absolute shite and soulless and don't deserve to be liked. Their shallow soullessness is disgusting. Art should have soul and feeling and humanity. Otherwise it's worthless and pointless.
its hard to deny it not being part of the saga in my opinion. there are a lot of inacuracies with it and the OT. but in general it answers the questions we all had and filled in the gaps.
and how can u not see the its not retorical about expecting the same magic in the TPM as in ANH. ANH was a turn in movie making and how we think. You already knew what to expect, somewat, of TPM.
It's not hard to deny it being part of the same saga. The missing part of the OOT's saga is the films Lucas would have made if he'd made the prequels back in the 80s. The prequels were got are entirely different, different in mentality and different in story. Read The Secret History of Star Wars. The prequel story changed considerably before Lucas put it onscreen. The prequel story he put onscreen is not the same story he had in mind back in 1983. Those new films aren't the missing part of the OOT's story, they're a new project with a revisionist take on Star Wars. If you want the missing part of the OOT story you need to look at Lucas's old notes. But the OOT doesn't need a prequel trilogy to support it, it does quite well on its own.
Furthermore, the prequel trilogy works by a different mentality, a totally different mindset, with different unspoken rules underpinning its universe. For example, The Phantom Menace is full of characters who are very clearly cartoon characters in every way. Jar Jar, Sebulba, Watto, Boss Nass, various podracers. Characters like that belong to a less real sort of fiction that takes its reality less seriously. Star Wars is hardly realistic, but the OOT always tried to make its non-real things seem real and make its universe seem real. That was a crucial part of what made the OOT what it was. Cartoons don't try to seem real the same way. Standard cartoon characters are part of taking a fictional reality less seriously, not believing in its reality as much. Bringing cartoon characters into Star Wars is saying that the Star Wars fictional reality is now being taken less seriously, its reality is being believed in less. Its reality is less real. That puts the prequels on a whole different level from the OOT. They exist in an alternate Star Wars fictional reality in which Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse (or Jar Jar) can exist alongside Palpatine. That's not the same Star Wars universe as the OOT's universe. The rules are different. With different foundation rules comes a different universe. Maybe the prequels exist in the same universe as the special edition, with its cartoonish cgi Jabba and Jedi Rocks scene, but they don't exist in the same universe as the OOT.
There are inconsistencies between the OOT films, but they are not glaring and massive. But the portrayal of Anakin as a shallow insubstantial jerk in the prequels is totally at odds with the guy he's implied to be in the OOT. That is a massive glaring difference. The character at the core of the backstory which became the PT has had a total change of personality. The Anakin of AOTC and ROTS could never have become the benevolent wise old guy full of gravitas that we see portrayed by Sebastian Shaw in ROTJ or the strong forceful individual we saw as Darth Vader in the OOT. The very heart of the story has been changed drastically there. This is a different Star Wars universe.
And yes it should have been possible to get the same magic in the prequel trilogy that we got in the first Star Wars film, because we got the same magic in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. So no there's nothing rhetorical in what I said. The first three films are all magical. The Phantom Menace has something to it but compared to the OOT it's plastic, not magical at all. The remaining two prequel movies are as far from magical as possible. Two shallow cynical exercises in money-grubbing, with no soul.
TMBTM said:What Lucas did in the prequels was a betrayal of Star Wars and an insult to all of us. Those films don't fit into the same universe as the originals and as such they don't belong counted as part of the original saga.
The fact is the PT were a little letdown to me for the exact opposite of what you said: I pretty much already knew all about the main story (hell, even the final Anakin/Obi duel surrounded by lava was known for 20 years). No real surprise, appart some annoying and useless ones.
So I understand when people say that they don't like the PT and that they prefer ignoring them, but you can't say that they do not fit into the same univers. (well, yes, you can say that...but I disagree: ;) ) because it is the back story we already knew for ages, it's just the way of telling it that was (mostly) poorly done and missed good opportunities.
No, the PT is not the backstory we already knew for ages. It's a revisionist rewriting of that backstory. There were major changes made to that backstory before it went onscreen as the prequels. The story of the prequels is not the exact same backstory Lucas had way back. And furthermore, you can take a basic backstory and do it in totally different ways on the screen, with a different emotional makeup and the characters portrayed differently. The prequel films Lucas made are undoubtably very different that way from how they would have been if Lucas made them after ROTJ. The backstory changed, the mentality totally different... the prequels exist in a different Star Wars universe from the OOT. And remember, the prequels weren't made to be in the same universe as the OOT, they were made to be in the same universe as the special edition.
skyjedi2005 said:What it comes down to is that prequel trilogy defenders will say star wars was always a kids movie series. That it was always dumb popcorn cinema, and Lucas backs them up in this. To be honest the oot trilogy was written better and acted better as well as directed better. But was still popcorn films. Nobody ever said they were arthouse cinema, or had serious themes and issues discussed in them. These were movies like old hollywood, not serious film. They were basically an A picture upgrade in terms in budget and effects, writing and acting of the flash gordon serials.
They may not have been written to be intellectual films, but they always had depth due to their emotional depth and the conviction of their imagination and their use of mythical stuff of a sort that resonates in our subconscious. The prequels lack emotional depth, particularly the later two films, and their imagination doesn't have the same conviction. They are shallow films, the latter two horribly shallow.
As for the claim that Star Wars was always for kids, used as a justification for The Phantom Menace's bullshit... that claim fudges the truth. The original films were kids films to an extent, but they were made to work fully for adults. They were the definitive general audience films. The Phantom Menace put in a whole lot of kid-aimed stuff that seemed designed to turn off adults. The OOT is adult-friendly, the PT is not. Of course the OOT has Ewoks, but the ewoks work far better than Jar Jar Binks and the bloody video game podrace. The OOT was not exclusively kiddie, but The Phantom Menace had a lot of stuff that seemed to say "Adults, Keep Out." And the other two prequel films were silly teen films. I don't understand how anybody who's not a teen can get through that romance without severe stomach pains.
We as an older audience (i'm of course referring to us oot fans) are accused of Looking at the films through rose colored glasses. That these films were overhyped and not as good as we remember them being if we sit down now as adults and attentively watch them and out them under the same microscope as the prequels.
The OOT stands up amazingly well. These are films that work so well they're magical. The OOT was a phenomenon that brought something to life. There is no life in the PT.
Cgi these days is the least of Hollywood's problems though it has allowed them to get lazy. Movie directing is almost a joke these days, scriptwriting is worse than it has ever been. I very much agree with anyone who thinks mediocrity and profit are synomous with Hollywood today. Bankrupt creatively, sequels, prequels, reboots, and a slew of badly made and badly produced comic book films with an occasional gem. That being said movies have yet to stoop to the same low as television standards have, Reality tv anyone? Tv is Tits, Asses and Explosions and, sex and killing and more sex and killing. It is often hard to find a narrative or story thread between those and the tv advertisements. Plus movies are the same too. They have the flashy colors and cgi, and the Shaky cam and quick cuts in the editing. There are a lot of films that are cool and modern and flashy, but competely lack any decernable substance other than garbage. Dumb entertainments and twerp cinema are the name of the game, and if you refuse to turn off your brain and enjoy yourself for 2 hours and want quality, then you can go fuck yourself. Seems to be the unspoken feeling in tinseltown these days. Anyhow this is the way it is. There was a golden era in sci fi and fantasy, a golden era in movies, and a golden era in the comic books and that has passed us. The moderns can try to ape the classics all they want and fail at every turn. The seventies and Eighties with a few exceptions were the last great era in motion pictures. There is very little now to distinguish movies from music videos, or video games. To me movies stopped being an artform when they got rid of traditional effects, traditional animation and Stopped using film. The few still doing so should be commended because the Lucas types out there are going to destroy it with their great modern advances that forget storytelling and craftsmanship come first. The one word that sums up todays movies is "disposable". You watch and enjoy them for 2 hours and then forget them, if you can even sit through how awful most of them are or even keep you in your seat. At lot of people talked about wanting to walk out of the prequels or Indiana Jones IV for instance. I almost walked out of Star Trek nemesis and will probably walk out after paying to see the JJ trek film in disgust.
Now this I can't agree with. There have been many great films in recent times. Like Fight Club, Wonderland, Butcher Boy and Pan's Labyrinth. Nor is tv a medium marked by low quality. There is much great tv. I've never seen a movie to manage quite what the tv show The Wire has managed, for example. Furthermore, I'm not so confident in the greatness of many of the old films that are hailed as great classics. I'm not a believer in the view that great cinema is a thing of the past, of a bygone golden age. I find much to by happy about in modern film and tv. But not in modern Star Wars. I think that in certain ways the film medium has advanced over time. And the old Star wars films stand up beside the modern films, but the prequels do not.
Nor do I think cgi is necessarily bad. It's just bad when it's unconvincing or overdone, like how Lucas does it. The overuse of cgi in Indy 4 was a bloody abomination. Not the ants or the monkeys or the gophers (I was ok with those), the problem was the use of cgi for the backgrounds. Not on. Go film something real. But I love a good cgi monster done well. Which is something that was totally absent from the prequels. I don't think the use of cgi makes a film any less a work of art unless it's done badly. Lucas type cgi certainly makes a film less a work of art.
I didn't hate Trek Nemesis. It was no great film, but I've seen far worse. It was miles better the prequels. I have serious issues with Indy 4, but there's much I liked about it. Harrison Ford as Indy adds a lot and I think Shia LaBeouf is a good actor and makes a good son for Indy as well. I would have approved if the villains were more menacing, if events were menacing, if the film was less bland and didn't serve up total bullshit with their mangled aliens plot. Also, I could have done without Winstone's annoying character and I'm no fan of Cate Blanchett either.
As for the new Trek film, it's a bloody abomination. You don't take classic characters and recast them with other actors who don't fit the parts. Spock is Nimoy. Spock is not Quinto. Sylar was a pain in the butt on Heroes and now we have to the same actor doing Spock. I've seen photos of him in action playing the part that indicate he's getting it totally wrong. Meanwhile, the whole film is clearly an attempt to push Trek as some sort of teen thing. The guy they have for Kirk looks like he belongs in something like Dawson's Creek.
I will not argue for ever about how the PT are indeed different from the OT, we all are agree about that and we all agree that the OT are better.
But you remember me those who say that the last album of their favorit rock band sucks because it does not sound like the old ones. But it's still the same band! just different mood and/or age. You can say you don't like the last album, but you can't say it's not the same band. It's just that their vision of the music don't fit yours anymore.
And saying that it's not the same univers sounds a bit like you don't want to face the true. Which is that our so beloved movie saga is not exactly the same anymore. You can blind yourself pretending it's not Star Wars, but the new generations will mostly watch them from ep1 to ep6 and we can't do anything about that. All we can do is to show us the Adywan revisited OT! ;)
PS: This was not an angry post against anyone (as I am french, sometimes I don't know if the tone of my english is appropriate or not!)
you're fine. but yea, we all agree which was better. and if we didn't have the technology today to do to the PT wat lucas has done, it may not be all that disimliar from the OT. still, you're right. its a new age, new generation and so on. i'm sure the next generation will be saying the same as we are one day.
TMBTM said:I will not argue for ever about how the PT are indeed different from the OT, we all are agree about that and we all agree that the OT are better.
But you remember me those who say that the last album of their favorit rock band sucks because it does not sound like the old ones. But it's still the same band! just different mood and/or age. You can say you don't like the last album, but you can't say it's not the same band. It's just that their vision of the music don't fit yours anymore.
And saying that it's not the same univers sounds a bit like you don't want to face the true. Which is that our so beloved movie saga is not exactly the same anymore. You can blind yourself pretending it's not Star Wars, but the new generations will mostly watch them from ep1 to ep6 and we can't do anything about that. All we can do is to show us the Adywan revisited OT! ;)
PS: This was not an angry post against anyone (as I am french, sometimes I don't know if the tone of my english is appropriate or not!)
But you remember me those who say that the last album of their favorit rock band sucks because it does not sound like the old ones. But it's still the same band! just different mood and/or age. You can say you don't like the last album, but you can't say it's not the same band. It's just that their vision of the music don't fit yours anymore.
Here you're running by the mistaken view that George Lucas is Star Wars. He isn't. Star Wars is a specific phenomenon that comes about from the right people coming together at the right time to create a certain effect, involving many people beyond just Lucas. The new films are Lucas but that doesn't mean they're Star Wars. It's not the same as a music band, because the band is certain individuals. If you have those indivduals you have the band, end of story. Not the same with Star Wars. Just because you have Lucas doesn't mean you have Star Wars. Star Wars is a lot more than just George Lucas's "vision" and George Lucas's vision may have changed but that doesn't mean Star Wars changes with it. George Lucas's vision has become at odds with Star Wars, so what he's making isn't real Star Wars anymore.
And saying that it's not the same univers sounds a bit like you don't want to face the true. Which is that our so beloved movie saga is not exactly the same anymore. You can blind yourself pretending it's not Star Wars, but the new generations will mostly watch them from ep1 to ep6 and we can't do anything about that. All we can do is to show us the Adywan revisited OT! ;)
No I'm not having a problem facing anything. By saying it's not the same universe I'm recognizing the truth about the nature of this stuff. George Lucas is approaching this new stuff in a totally different mentality that makes it a different universe. You can approach the same universe in a different mentality without making it a different universe, but the difference here goes farther than that. Seriously different mentality and universe rules, mixed with glaring inconsistencies. It's truly as if it's an alternate universe Star Wars. That's the reality of this new stuff. I'm not blinding myself by pretending anything. It's blind to ignore the massive chasm between this and the old Star Wars and to pretend that they make up one unit. New generations will include people with different attitudes and mentalities who will approach it in different ways. But if they approach it as six episodes they will be mistaken, fooled by Lucas's bullshit. The true Star Wars is the original trilogy. That's the real Star Wars phenomenon. The new stuff is just the sub-par spinoff that's so different in mentality that it doesn't work as being in the same universe. Don't be so sure that future generations will care about the prequels. The old trilogy will be remembered as classics, the rest will not.
rcb said:you're fine. but yea, we all agree which was better. and if we didn't have the technology today to do to the PT wat lucas has done, it may not be all that disimliar from the OT. still, you're right. its a new age, new generation and so on. i'm sure the next generation will be saying the same as we are one day.
It's not just a new age and generation. A prequel trilogy that was just a new age and generation would have marked differences from the OT but it would be far more in common with it in spirit and vision. This is not jjust a case of older fans rejecting the product of a new age, this is a case of rejecting stuff that's a total betrayal of what went before. Lucas broke with the tradition entirely. It's not just a new age's new version of an older tradition, it's a new tradition. Hence a new universe.
Also, the PT is different from the OT in a lot more than different technology. It's a totally different vision, with a totally different attitude and mentality. If Lucas made the PT with the old technology but the same new mentality, it would still be totally different from the OT. Maybe not as different but still vastly different.
