Abrams is Destroying Star Trek like Lucas has Destroyed Star Wars — Page 6

Gaffer Tape said:

lordjedi said:

He also cheated on the Kobashi Maru, changing the program so he could win because he "doesn't like to lose".  Supposedly that's shown in the new movie.

 

Kobayashi.  Sorry, just had to nitpick.  ^_~

Damn!  I even Googled that to make sure I had the correct spelling.  It's spelled wrong on at least two other sites.  I guess I should have checked Wikipedia.  And Google didn't even correct me.

lordjedi said:

One of the things I liked most about Kirk, and to a lesser extent Picard, is that they were willing to break the rules in order to protect their crew.  That's something Janeway didn't seem willing to do and it was obvious from the start.  She had a chance to get everyone back home in the first episode of Voyager and turned it down.  I can't remember the exact reasons, but all I could think was "Your crew comes first!"  Obviously that would've ended the series, which is why they needed better writers from the start.

Maybe in the pilot Janeway follows the rules, but as time goes on I think she breaks the rules far more than any other Captain on any of the other shows, makes Kirk look like a boy scout. I think in one episode Tuvok reminds her that she has already broken the Prime Directive 47 times in that month alone. The show ends with her illegally going back in time and altering events to get the Voyager home safely.

Yes and instead of Getting court martialed she is Promoted to Fleet Admiral and Picard has to take orders from her.

I believe i read once that they were looking for a Female Kirk Type Chracter and that was Kathryn Janeway.

They were so far away from home she was supposed to be like the Person on the frontier making decisions.

Kind of Like Wagon Train to the Stars.   Rodenberry never denied that Star Trek was just a space western with Social Themes.

Both Kirk and Han Solo are space cowboys.

The original Actress picked to play Janeway not Mulgrew was less warm and witty or outgoing.  She was more cold and scientific, very much how the Picard character started out until they made him More Kirk Like.

The funny thing is i think of Mulgrew and i think of the character she played in the movie remo williams,lol.

I also laughed out loud that Tom Paris was played by the guy from Masters of the Universe.  "good Journey" 

Calm down man.

Just because there is a picture of Lucas and JJ having a chat, and because ILM is doing the effect (as they do for countless other films) we now have all these crazy over the top conspiracy theories of how JJ worships Lucas and is asking for his advice on how to destroy this as Lucas destroyed Star Wars.

If this movie bombs, it is by no fault or success of Lucas'. It is being made by a TV show creator who is successful at bringing together casts of great looking young actors to pull in audiences. His last movie was an unwatchable take on the giant monster movie genre, it while it was successful in creating hype, and getting people interested in the looks of the cast, it pulled plenty of people into the theaters, but how many people came out saying that it was an awesome movie? Not that many from what I can tell. I have yet to hear one of my friends say that they really liked it, the best I have heard was, "It was kind of cool I guess, wouldn't really be interested in seeing it again though". I have a feeling this new ST flick will be kind of like that. Why do we feel the need to blame Lucas for this? I can already imagine the next series of rants, "Lucas raped my childhood by destroying Stars Wars, Indiana Jones, and now Star Trek!" Grrr, I give you the first two, but please don't stretch this Lucas hatred to expand to every single cinematic disappointment you experience from now till the day you die.

The interesting paradox of this whole thing, is that JJ is aiming this sucker at the "Star Trek, eww, nerd alert!" crowd, and not at the nerds who are its loyal base. Kind of an interesting experiment actually. I think for the next phase of this experiment, they should take Barbie, a franchise aimed at the 9 years and under girl crowd, and make it into a feature film aimed at 18 - 34 year old males.

JJ is either a genius for throwing out 40 plus years of trek and Starting over or a moron.

Canon in such big fictional Franchises needs to be able to expand and contract.  A lot has been added to the canon throughout the years.  Similar to Star Wars it is almost impossible to make everything match up without Contradictions and so forth.  In Lucas case he very wisely set the EU apart from the films to avoid having constant retcons.  Yet he went ahead and did worse to the canon than the EU ever did with the prequels and Special Editions continued to be tinkered with to fit his current vision of his created universe.

The prequels and their canon was so vastly different from the Original Trilogy i sometimes wonder why he did not make them to Match the original films or completely Remake the old Trilogy.  At least in that scenario the originals would be untouched and would not have to be buried.

Kirk as a rebel was started by Nicholas Meyer and Harve Benett.  Star Trek II revamped the series and injected Shakespeare drama and classic literature, as well as militarism that was not a part of Roddenberry original design at least according to him.

I personally don't think Star Trek was always that way.  His philosophical outlook changed during the Movie years and during the Next Generation.  His vision of the future could no longer have conflict.  Everyone worked together, and there was no disease, hunger or money.  Star Trek did originally have social issues Talked about in the guise of science fiction and a quasi hippie idealism to it in the begiinning.  But it also had conflict and Was basically a space western.

There was sex and violence at least what was allowed in those times in the rejected "too cerebral pilot"   The Cage.

Roddenberry like Lucas after him took way more credit than was his due by Appropriating the work of his employees and claiming it as his own.   A great deal Of Star Trek was Dorothy (D.C.) Fontana and Gene Coon. Also Samuel Peoples.  Nimoy himself pretty much created the character of Spock with Little to go on from Gene's rough idea. Just like the Kirk character was Created and interpreted by William Shatner in a way that made the character live and breathe.  Actors are a large portion of the creation and they almost never get the recognition they deserve especially in science fiction.

Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford should be applauded for breathing Life into the characters in the original star wars trilogy.  Had the characters been played by Hayden Christensen, Natalie Portman etc.  they would have been as sterile as the prequels and its phony cgi are.

C3PX said:

His last movie was an unwatchable take on the giant monster movie genre, it while it was successful in creating hype, and getting people interested in the looks of the cast, it pulled plenty of people into the theaters, but how many people came out saying that it was an awesome movie? Not that many from what I can tell. I have yet to hear one of my friends say that they really liked it, the best I have heard was, "It was kind of cool I guess, wouldn't really be interested in seeing it again though".

Really?!  I loved Cloverfield.  I normally hate movies that end that way, but I loved Cloverfield.  I was on the edge of my seat (literally) at times.  I'd watch it and rewatch it looking for all the little clues about the monster and events that are sprinkled throughout the movie (one of the opening songs even aludes to one of the first deaths).

The interesting paradox of this whole thing, is that JJ is aiming this sucker at the "Star Trek, eww, nerd alert!" crowd, and not at the nerds who are its loyal base. Kind of an interesting experiment actually. I think for the next phase of this experiment, they should take Barbie, a franchise aimed at the 9 years and under girl crowd, and make it into a feature film aimed at 18 - 34 year old males.

It could be Bat Barbie :)

skyjedi2005 said:

Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford should be applauded for breathing Life into the characters in the original star wars trilogy.  Had the characters been played by Hayden Christensen, Natalie Portman etc.  they would have been as sterile as the prequels and its phony cgi are.

This is doubtful.  In the originals, George couldn't keep saying "I don't care what you think".  He actually had people telling him no and he had to listen.  By the time we got to the Prequels, he didn't have to listen to anyone.  So while you're right on some level, Hayden probably wouldn't have been cast in the first place, therefore you wouldn't have seen the same performances.  The performances you saw are like that because Lucas figured he'd just fix everything in post.  That was not possible in the originals, so you therefore have different performances.

In the case of Star Trek, Paramount doesn't have to worry about what the creator thinks since they own the rights.  One of the other things I see wrong with this new movie is that everyone, to me, looks way to young.  The actors in TOS looked much older than the current actors.

Hunter6 said:

For me, if this type of movie is the future of star trek, then it is better to let it die. The thing is that Star Trek fans have to know that Star Trek is Forever and if this movie bombs, Star Trek itself will not.

Why do you even want future adventures in the Star Trek franchise? Wouldn't you rather keep it as it is?

Nanner Split said:

Yoda Is Your Father said:

Ricky Gervais sucks. The Office was okay, so was Extras, but now he's just annoying. In England if you say 'Ricky Gervais' people groan. It will be this way in America before long too.

 

 

Fixed. :P

LOL! So true.

I HOPE THIS MOVIE IS TREMENDOUSLY SUCCESSFUL, AND THAT IT TURNS OUT TO BE A GREAT MOVIE.  WHY?  SO ALL OF YOU NAYSAYERS WILL SHUT THE FUCK UP.  THE MOVIE ISN'T EVEN OUT YET, IDIOTS.  YOU CAN COMPLAIN ALL YOU WANT ONCE YOU SEE THE MOVIE.

YEAH, BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS HOW I LIKE TO KILL VAMPIRES.

I still find it funny you come into a thread with a title that pretty much says, "hey let's complain about the new Trek film" and then complain about people complaining. The fact of the matter is, this film is simply screaming out, "Hate me, I am going to suck as hard as I possibly can." You can hope this film will be hugely successful and awesome all you like, but it isn't going to fix anything. The best you'll be able to do is lower your standards and pretend that it is good, seems to have worked well enough for SW fans over the last few years.

I have no doubt this will be a box office smash though, I'll be very surprised if it isn't.

We can only hope the finished movie is not as bad as the trailer.

If Abrams is really destroying Star Trek as you say Hunter6 then William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy are helping him as is Jonathan Frakes.

Even that Phase II/ New Voyages fanfilm guy is defending him.

There is still not a finished cut of the movie the version that the nimoys watched had almost no finished effects and no music.  If the sillyness of the acting and dialogue can be fixed editorially and the music adds depth and emotion to the film it could be good.  I doubt JJ this late in the project is going to have new lines of dialogue written and acted by the actors, or redesign the enterprise bridge and exterior to please fans of either the tv show or old film franchise.

There is still little info out there were there any shots done with Models or Miniatures, or was the movie shot on film or HDcam.  I am sick of people calling a project shot on video a film as no film was used to shoot the fucking thing.

Dude, seriously, why are you wasting precious time chewing out people for complaining about Star Trek in a thread intended for complaining about Star Trek?

Following your same line of logic, there are a bazillion other threads for discussing ST on this forum, including at least one dedicated to the new movie, feel free to complain about complaining in there, but if you are getting annoyed at people giving the new film a hard time, maybe it wouldn't hurt to ignore this whole thread. 

Just a thought.

Besides JJ cannot kill Star Trek.  Star Trek already died with Enterprise and Nemesis and has only been kept alive by the fans who go to the conventions and read the novels.

A band put out an album called "its dead jim".  JJ is trying to Rebirth Trek at least as a viable film series again.

So Trek has died many deaths before and risen from the Ashes like the phoenix of mythology. 

Star Trek lives in the hearts and minds of millions of people.  It won't die if this film is sucessful or if it bombs only as far as the suits pulling the purse strings at the studio are concerned.  Star Trek like Star Wars is a part of American mythology and the names of its Characters are household names.  Even people who have never seen star trek have probably heard the line beam me up scotty, or know who kirk is or spock is.

Star Wars and Star Trek are incredibly seperated franchises one is science Fiction and the other space opera.

One is set in our own imagined future and another a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

Still i like both, not equally mind you Trek tos was my dads franchise.  I like Star Wars better.   I used to like Next Generation better, until i liked films 1-6 and watched the re-runs.  I Still loved the original series as a kid i just thought the effects were cheesy after seeing Star Wars, though the effects on the slow and boring motion picture blew me away.  Spocks death in Trek II as a child nearly brought me to tears, yeah i was one of those people who cried when Optimus Prime died in the Transformers movie too.

The stealing of the enterprise in part 3 was awesome.  It still gives me chills every time i watch it.

I don't even care that that scene may have been stolen from a Space Battleship Yamato film, or it could be a co-incidance as i believe it to be.  Farewell to Space Battleship Yamato was made before star trek III.

People get to the point where they are so confortable with the fictional characters in Star Trek or Star Wars, that they almost become their friends in adventure.  Like the screen heroes of old.  When kids wanted to be Like Stewart Granger, Eroll Flynn, Sinbad, or Zorro.  The viewer or the reader pretty much goes on the journey the hero does, at least in a sucessful film or novel.

First you need a character you are sympathetic to, an everyman Like Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins.

Lucas failed with Anakin Skywalker as nobody cared for his journey or felt sympathetic to him as a work of fiction.  It was like Trying to make the Devil a Sympathetic character which Milton could do in Paradise Lost but Lucas is no Milton,lol.

James Kirk as originally created and as played by Shatner was not an everyman.  He was the top of his class, and a pile of books with legs.  Shatner's inspiration was Alexander the great i believe as a stageplay he was in.  The JJ kirk is either a new creation or an composite of the character created by Roddenberry, added to by Nick Meyer etc.

Hopefully they don't steal the Enterprise as cadets in this movie i Seriously laughed out loud when shatner did that in his novel the academy.  Still that book had Kirk steal a federation vehicle and Spock was at a brothel to investigate art theft,lol. Not too much a surprise since Shatner's Young Kirk has already been done under the Name of Jim Endicott, and they are almost the same character.

I think JJ is a talented guy but he has a lot to prove as this is only his second film he is directing, He still has to overcome those who say he is only a tv director.  This being his sophmore effort, since he declined to direct cloverfield because he needed the time to work on this movie.   MI3 was quite good if it was a tv episode it kind of even reminded me of the old 60's show in that light.  But as a movie the scale was not big enough or broad enough an idea or execution.  After MI2 which was a huge expensive blockbuster.  I wonder if JJ understands that movies are supposed to have a large epic scale.

The one thing MI3 did that the first 2 films did not do was focus on the characters not just on the visual effects and stunts.

Still the guys who wrote this New Trek wrote Bay's Transformers also and that had bad jokes and cringeworthy dialogue lots of sexual innuendo and explosions.  The Trailer for trek gives me the Transformers feeling. and as that movie made tons of money that seems to be the direction they are aiming for.

In Shatner's defense i'll argue that he is being nice to JJ in his own best interest.  Because if Kirk is to Return it will be in the sequel and Shatner wants JJ to have him in the sequel if offered a real part and not a cameo as older Kirk.

The only thing is nero's fucking with the timeline would have to explain why James Kirk did not dissapear from the enterprise B only to come out of the nexus to aid picard and die on veridian III.

Because Trek 2009 is Spock Centric William Shatner is betting on the Next one focusing on Kirk.  I would guess though Chris Pine will Play Kirk in the sequel and JJ will play at being very coy about why not having Shatner in the movie instead of telling him your too fucking old.

Maybe Shatners ego got in the way of him having a part in this film? 

It being pretty much on the record from everyone else but Shatner the reason why Trek V was a dissaster was his ego.

You have to agree the old cast is too OLd to reprise their roles and get another original series picture.  It is about 15-20 years too late for that.  for a real star trek VII they would have to have started pre production in 1991, with the film to come out in 1993 or 1994.  This is 2008 those actors are now old enough to be grandfathers and grandmothers if not great grandfathers and great grandmothers.

The ashes of Eden would have made a great star trek VII, or the Return would have made a great star trek VIII after Generations.  But its time to let it go.  The closest thing you will ever get to another big screen adventure is the graphic novel for ashes of eden, or the actors cameos in starfleet academy.

You will have to be Happy with the cameo roles they had in the Star Trek next generation universe.  Kelley in Encounter at Farpoint parts 1 and 2, Nimoy in Unification Parts 1 and 2, and Doohan in Relics.  As well as Shatner, Doohan and Koenig in Generations. Also George Takei got to play Sulu on Deep Space nine. 

This is not including the Cowley fanfilms Starring Koenig or Takei, or the fanfilm by the Tim Russ that Also had Koenig, and Nichelle Nichols.

This also does not include Shatner reprising his role for Kirk in the Books on tape based on his kirk novels, or the other actors doing books on tape.  It also does not include the videogames Like Legacy.

Too bad the Last time Shatner will Play Kirk was in the Legacy game.  Kind of like How Sean Connerys last outing as James Bond was for the From Russia with Love game or Pierce Brosnans in Everything or Nothing.

The last time Mark Hamill played Luke Skywalker was doing the voice for a television commercial for Vector Prime.  I think they also Asked him to voice the first rogue squadron game, and jedi academy but he turned them down and they used pre recorded lines from the movies or hired a different actor.  Him voicing the character was not out of the realm of possibility as he did voice over work on Lucasrts full throttle.  But he wanted nothing to do with the character of Luke or Star Wars.  I think he was even asked to write some star wars comics by dark horse at one point and said he was not interested.

Being a voice over for animation i am very surprised he has not done any voice work on the new clone wars cartoon, He could voice any character as a cameo. 

Similarly Paramount could do another Trek animated series and ask the actors to voice their characters.

Hunter6 said:

C3PX said:

I still find it funny you come into a thread with a title that pretty much says, "hey let's complain about the new Trek film" and then complain about people complaining. The fact of the matter is, this film is simply screaming out, "Hate me, I am going to suck as hard as I possibly can." You can hope this film will be hugely successful and awesome all you like, but it isn't going to fix anything. The best you'll be able to do is lower your standards and pretend that it is good, seems to have worked well enough for SW fans over the last few years.

Yeah, I think the same things too.

C3PX said:

I have no doubt this will be a box office smash though, I'll be very surprised if it isn't.

yeah, it is just sad. Some/most People are just dumb, you would think after the past 3 bad star wars prequel films (and also all the other bad remakes) that People would think more before seeing another big CGI eye-candy re-______ or pre-________ film of a classic sci-fi tv show or Movies.

 

Remember the better time?

The Lost in Space Remake ----- failed

The Wild Wild West Remake ----- failed

The Godzilla Remake ----- failed

and so on....

 

I'M GUESSING YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED THE NEWLY REMASTERED TOS.  YOU KNOW, IT'S THE ONE WITH THE UPDATED SFX?