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STAR WARS: EP V "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - 12GB 1080p MP4 VERSION AVAILABLE NOW — Page 166

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I think Obi-Wan's fighting in ANH is weak sauce because it's likely he hasn't used his lightsaber in almost 20 years.

Nevermind the fact that Alderaan just blew up and that great disturbance in the Force probably did a good deal of damage on ObiWan's Force-chi or whatever.

Dooku, on the other hand, is a Sith. He gets his power from hate and anger. In ROTJ, Luke didn't start kicking Vader's ass until he got angry.

I have no problem with the Jedi & Sith in the prequels being able to jump around and stuff, so long as the fight makes sense. Sadly, though it looks nice, a lot of the time it was just flash without substance. In each of the duels in the OT the combatants are carrying on a conversation as they fight. But in TPM, for example, after the Jedi Council tell Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to discover who this new Sith guy is, when they encounter Darth Maul they don't ask him a single question. Wasn't it their job to find out why he was there to kill Amidala, who his master is maybe, how did this Sith come back... you know?

It really wasn't until EpIII that we started getting some dialog during duels again.

 

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 (Edited)

Yeah, but the first thing Maul does upon seeing Obi and Qui is fire up his saber, so it's obvious he's not in the mood for conversation.  O & Q's first priority at that point is self defense and disarm the enemy.  Once they have him subdued, then they can question him.  Unfortunately, it became a life-and-death struggle and they never got to that point.

My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.

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Rhikter said:

I don't think I read it on this thread LordVader because I remember it being before I had made an account at OriginalTrilogy.com

Also, I was only using the "Saber Duel" argument as an example of many similar arguments that I've heard over time.  In fact, I just had a discussion with someone in PT: Revisited thread about omitting color designations from Clone Troopers to make them look more like Stormtroopers.  Needles to say I was against it for the same reasons I highlighted in my  "Artistic License" argument.

ok, I shall remain inactive until Kurgan stops posting his bullshit, or more likely when I have to donn my trenchcoat and scarf when hell freezes over...

 

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Originally posted by LordVader:

"ok, I shall remain inactive until Kurgan stops posting his bullshit, or more likely when I have to donn my trenchcoat and scarf when hell freezes over..."

I don't understand what this has to do with the post of mine that you cited.

-Rhikter

www.facebook.com/rhikter

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Rhikter said:

Originally posted by LordVader:

"ok, I shall remain inactive until Kurgan stops posting his bullshit, or more likely when I have to donn my trenchcoat and scarf when hell freezes over..."

I don't understand what this has to do with the post of mine that you cited.

 

I agree! Now I'm curious what he thought I said that was so "bullshit" he had to leave the forum...

 

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JohnGreenArt said:

I think Obi-Wan's fighting in ANH is weak sauce because it's likely he hasn't used his lightsaber in almost 20 years.

Nevermind the fact that Alderaan just blew up and that great disturbance in the Force probably did a good deal of damage on ObiWan's Force-chi or whatever.

Dooku, on the other hand, is a Sith. He gets his power from hate and anger. In ROTJ, Luke didn't start kicking Vader's ass until he got angry.

I have no problem with the Jedi & Sith in the prequels being able to jump around and stuff, so long as the fight makes sense. Sadly, though it looks nice, a lot of the time it was just flash without substance. In each of the duels in the OT the combatants are carrying on a conversation as they fight. But in TPM, for example, after the Jedi Council tell Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to discover who this new Sith guy is, when they encounter Darth Maul they don't ask him a single question. Wasn't it their job to find out why he was there to kill Amidala, who his master is maybe, how did this Sith come back... you know?

It really wasn't until EpIII that we started getting some dialog during duels again.

 

That really doesn't work as a solid explanation (though it's clever, I'll grant you that), because, even if we assume that Obi-Wan really hasn't used his lightsaber in 20 years...

We're given no indication in the movies that such things occur. Obi-Wan says he'll be all right and he's just fine later. Anything more than a momentary headache and heartburn is, I think, reading into the scene what isn't there. If his Force power was reduced, why didn't he lose the fight with Vader? The fact is that they were in a stalemate, but escape was never his plan (as Vader indicates earlier), and he literally gave up, to distract Vader, giving Luke & co. time to escape.

 

How does "hate and anger" suddenly give you the ability to move fast and flip through the air? I guess this explains why Yoda, an 870+ year old goblin can flip around too, right? The fact is that everyone in the Prequels has these abilities... being able to do mid-air flips is a basic Force skill like blocking blaster shots. Last I checked, these things were not "Sith skills."

 

Heck, look at ESB, Yoda trains Luke to do those flips pretty early on!

We don't see that fighting style because Alec Guinness was a senior citizen, Dave Prowse could barely see in the suit, and they didn't have the time and budget to whip up some other arrangement that would have allowed for more energetic fighting... (as we see in the latter two movies). Add into this the fact that at this stage of the production, they each basically had car batteries up their sleeves and those easily broken rotating reflective rods in their hands. Too swift or elaborate movements exposed the wires or risked damaging the fragile tubes.


But the main reason we don't see prequel style fighting in the OT is because The Matrix and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon had not yet been released to change public expectations of what "cool fight scenes" should look like.


Everything else is an unsatisfactory, after-the-fact rationalization for what is essentially a stylistic choice based on tech/budget limitations. Going by the rules "established" in the Prequels, both Vader AND Obi-Wan should be as agile as General Grievous and Count Dooku in that scene, and if Lucas were to go crazy (again) and re-do it, that would be the logical way to pull it off. But it really doesn't bother me that the movies are different from one another. They each are consistent within themselves. It's the whole popular Mythology Lucas has created about how he "always intended" this or that (and the repetition of such cliches in the Expanded Universe material, ad infinatum), that has gotten people so upset about discontinuities and coming up with explanations like that.

What Adywan did with the duel was a reasonable compromise to "juice up" the fight a bit, without totally destroying it (I personally objected to the PT music being inserted, but once I saw the scene in question thought it "worked"). Of course, short of getting some guys in costumes to re-enact the scene with some CG (which is way beyond the scope of any fan editor's project to make it actually blend in), that's about the best he could do.

 

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Of course the main reason why the saber fights in the OT were due to a lack of 'inspiration' during the 70s and 80s, that goes without saying. 

However, if you go by the story, then it assumes that there are very Jedi left in the galaxy - Luke is proclaimed to be the last of the Jedi by Yoda on his deathbed and Vader is the only Sith, if you believe the 'There can only be two Sith' rule. 

You can then assume, although assumptions are the basis of all f**k-ups, that Obi-Wan will have had little use for his lightsaber skills over the 20 years, preferring instead to train himself to be able to pass his spirit on into the Force and hide his presence from Vader. Vader, equally, will have had little use for his lightsaber since a little Force choking will have been enough to settle most 'disputes'. Therefore, going by logical thinking, the skill levels of both Vader and Kenobi will have remained static at best, possibly even dropping due to years of non-use. Even if you factor in Dooku's prancing about in the PT, he does have the added 'bonus' of being an old man in at least active Jedi times, not when there are 3 of them left with 2 of them hiding their presences in the Force. 

Anyway, that's all I'll say on this...(I have no idea if it does make sense to anyone other than me! It is an opinion and all opinions should be respected no matter what the subject.)

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DarthStewie said:

Just a small note however, in case you missed the little thing I changed other than the wipes and sequence, I flipped and rotated the wampa's hand when he hits Luke. His "thumb" is now at the top of the screen instead at the bottom which makes it look as though he's hitting him with his left arm instead of a twisted backhand of his right arm.  Just a little nugget for thought but that's always bugged me since I was a kid and its nice to change it around for my own sake.

Although I recently agreed that the shot of the 'Wampa' arm swiping might be better not looking like it's a 'backwards' swipe....I've just realised that the very next shot of the arm hitting/pulling down on Luke, unfortunately shows the paw 'thumb' in the same position too.  This shot would have to be altered a little too, to tie-in better if the 'swiping' paw 'thumb' shot is changed.

I can live with the present look at the end of the day if Adywan prefers things as they are here. 

By the way Astromech, I really like your reasoning there.  Thanks to you, that will now be my preferred explaination on the matter.  Nice one. :) 

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Here is the thing:

The lightsabre duels in the OT movies (definitely the first 2) were actually based on Kendo and Aikido, as well as other martial art training.  In fact, if you watch some Shaw Brother films, you can see some of their moves in there.  Now you may consider it boring, but the fact is their movements were based on actual martial art training.

Compare that to the Prequels: sure, you have a LOT of spinning around and twirling of the sabre.  I do like that they had the Jedi occasionally do force jumps (when you think they'd all be able to just plain out FLY, being that a fully trained Jedi could lift an X-Wing without too much effort.  I mean, if you can lift an X-wing, you can lift yourself, right?), but overall Lucas kind of held back on the wiz-bang factor.

I mean, all they can do is force-jump, lift or throw around objects and shoot lightning bolts out their fingertips?  Really?  That's it?  And on top of that, when they fight with their lightsabres, it looks like some rehearsal for a teen band tryout than actual martial art fighting.  It doesn't help that most of the "Jedi" have a vapid look on their faces too.  OR walk right into traps and get themselves killed by weak minded clones.


So, just because there is more sword twirling, how does that make the prequel fights "cooler"?

Not to mention, what does any of this have to do with EMPIRE: REVISITED suggestions?

         

 “You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”

– Homer Simpson

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Monroville said:

Not to mention, what does any of this have to do with EMPIRE: REVISITED suggestions?

Sadly, people think that Adywan can do extreme changes to his edits like some kind of magician.  Have you seen the Prequel suggestions thread?  These people think that people sitting at home can change entire plot lines, move characters to other movies, paint thousands of clones and battle droids frame by frame, create a whole new Grievous CG model, and apparently make Luke flip around and spin his saber in Vader's face.

There's only so much anyone can do with existing footage.  I find the saber battles in the OT to be JUST FINE, and I think any way short of refilming Mark Hamill and Bob Anderson THIRTY YEARS AGO would look crappy.

Basically, we should stop this conversation and think about the very real limitations Ady and other fan editors have using thirty year old movies with no deleted scenes or alternate takes can do with the footage they have.

I know Ady is a miracle worker, but having Obi-Wan light his saber up first is a little different then making him do spin kicks off the wall.  He may be able to tone down the flipping in the Prequels, but we'll have to see when he gets there.  If he can cut out some of the even tiny ridiculous things the Jedi do, there will be a ton of continuity problems as half the fights would be gone completely.

 

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doubleofive said:

There's only so much anyone can do with existing footage.  I find the saber battles in the OT to be JUST FINE

Same here. I like all of the saber battles in different ways, and the one in ESB is just perfect to me. It has always been my favorite one. It's the little things about it, really, including the atmosphere and coloring of the set, the distance they travel in their battle, Vader popping up out of nowhere, the tip of the blade inches away from Luke's face... Just awesome! :D

 

My crazy vinyl LP blog

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 (Edited)

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-Rhikter

www.facebook.com/rhikter

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ladyferry said:

Have you all seen this:

http://jediinsider.com/index.php?catid=255&itemid=11434

Some of the photos could give Adywan some ideas for the Hoth battle, what do you think?

Here are a few more:

http://sleetapawang.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!BD09644C5F6E196D!632.entry
(in regards to slightly altering the AT-STs for EMPIRE and JEDI, check out the window config on the 6th image, shown below.  I never liked the "droopy eye" look of the propped up windows, not to mention its kinda stupid if you have to use a walker in a non-oxygen environment... much less give your enemy a chance to shoot you as you drive the damn thing).

There is a really cool picture of 2 AT-STs attacking the rebel trench on Hoth that I believe was in one of the EMPIRE comic adaptations.  If I can find it, I will post it here.



AT-AT windows on AT-ST

Awww, aren't they cute?  Hey Ady: I know ROTJ is 2 or 3 (or 4 or 5) years from now, but think we could have some squished ewok under AT-ST foot action (ala 1976 KING KONG during the "escape from the show" scene)?

http://flickr.com/photos/76747220@N00/2245185567
(same thing in regards to the different windows)

Here is an interesting quote from the 1st link:

Origin and design

The AT-ST model used in The Empire Strikes Back was to have more screen time; however, one scene depicting a snowspeeder shooting at the AT-ST model was ruined when the set's background shifted. For Return of the Jedi, ILM made the AT-ST design more detailed. Numerous models were created, including a full-sized AT-ST for on-location shooting.[9] Director Richard Marquand and producer Robert Watts played the AT-ST operators for the scene in which Chewbacca (Peter Mayhew) and a pair of Ewoks commandeer an AT-ST.


All Star Empire: ATTACK!

         

 “You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”

– Homer Simpson

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Re: the lightsaber duel argument....is anyone remembering that Vader doesnt have real limbs, therefore cannot produce sith lightning nor do any flippy-floppy stuff? And that in ESB he doesn't want to kill Luke anyway, and probably was pretty reluctant to in ROTJ too. And ol' Papa Palpatine can, to quote Paul Atreides, probably "kill with a word" anyway.

 

 

So ner!

 

:-)

 

 

 

I assure you we are quite safe from your friends here

 

 

The Rise of Darth Scourge, by Phil West

 

 

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well you might have heard that FanEdit.org has been destroyed by the Empire.

 

Gutted.

 

If I took an original Van Gogh, cut it up, rearranged it, painted in some new bits, and then showed it at a gallery, would I be shot down?

I assure you we are quite safe from your friends here

 

 

The Rise of Darth Scourge, by Phil West

 

 

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darth_scourge said:

well you might have heard that FanEdit.org has been destroyed by the Empire.

 

Gutted.

 

If I took an original Van Gogh, cut it up, rearranged it, painted in some new bits, and then showed it at a gallery, would I be shot down?

This is a terrible blow as that site (like this forum) went to great lengths to prevent piracy.

It casts a shadow over the fan-edit community and puts the future of this forum in doubt.

 

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It's not as dead as you think.  Someone described it as "on life support" - suffering from a terrible wound but slowly recovering.  See this thread I started here.

My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.

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Bingowings said:
darth_scourge said:

If I took an original Van Gogh, cut it up, rearranged it, painted in some new bits, and then showed it at a gallery, would I be shot down?

 

Um, isn't that what Andy Warhol did for a living?!

 

         

 “You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”

– Homer Simpson

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darth_scourge said:

If I took an original Van Gogh, cut it up, rearranged it, painted in some new bits, and then showed it at a gallery, would I be shot down?

Not if the original continued to exist and you acknowledged its creator. Oh wait... how many millions of copies has Star Wars sold? How many of us will, even though we despise the colour problems and the SE fiddling, and have a version without them, still go and buy it again when it comes out on Blu-Ray?

The Hobbit: Roadshow Edition

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 (Edited)

What worries me more is that master Ady was the first one to respond in Ziz's thread. Thing is, there aint no copywrited material avalible here, no direct links to download movies on this site, so i dont think theres anything to get our arses up about here.

There again any futher clips of w.i.p. may be an infringement (perhaps) if they want to be petty.

Whats this crap about editing me out of jedi???

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Who knows Solo, it's like that snowflake.

You know, ady could have his own website if he had the means...

The person your searching for simply does not exist

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Yeah, membership by personel invite only.

Thats you gone Joshy! And the Worm!

I really dig that second pic Monroville, i aint got that one. (Note: see me in that pic with the other *spit* Royal Guards?).