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Lord of the Rings on Blu Ray

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I would like to know if anyone has heard anything on a potential Blu Ray release for Lord of the Rings. I'm sure the movie was shot in HD all that is needed is redo cgi in HD so my prediction would probably have atleast Fellowship Blu Ray coincide with the Hobbit Movie. Thoughts anyone?

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LordVader said:

I'm sure the movie was shot in HD

Hmm, you just might be right about that. ;)


For me, Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies would be fun to have on Blu-ray, but they're not so wonderful that I'm really looking forward to them. (The books could have been translated to film in far, far better ways.) With all the money they're bound to make, however, I'm sure that they've been planning to release them on Blu-ray for a while now, the question is what timetable they've decided on. For that I have no clue.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Peter Jackson has said in interviews that he's been working on the Blu-ray release. I think we'll see them at some point next year, most likely as a box set with all three films. Hopefully we get the extended cuts in addition to the theatrical cuts and Warner doesn't force us to double dip.

The films weren't shot with HD cams; they were shot on Super35. Film has a higher "resolution" than HD, so that's actually a good thing. I'm very concerned that the recent anti-grain trend will lead to digital noise reduction on these releases, which removes film grain--along with high frequency detail. It's been a problem on many recent Blu-ray releases because of misguided studios trying to make films look "clearer" and more like video.

I doubt they'll have to redo the CG from the ground up. It was most likely rendered at 2K resolution during post production, which is slightly higher than HD's 1920x1080.

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Jay said:

The films weren't shot with HD cams; they were shot on Super35.

Hmm, I consider Super35 HD, since it has a highly defined image that is even above the 1080 pixel standard (and the lower, 780 standard is also called HD). Do people define it as not being "high definition" because they wish to reserve that term for digital mediums?

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Actually the HD releases did not happen as soon as some would have liked because Jackson had a lawsuit against newline over the dvd sales royalties and airing on television and what not.  That case has since been settlled and the Hobbit Films production is moving forward.  Yet New Line and Sael Zaentz Never payed the Tolkien Estate their royalties that were due.  Manches and Co has been pursuing a lawsuit in the British Court system to get the tolkien rights back from Tolkien Enterprises owned by Saul Z obviously and has nothing to do with Christopher Tolkien or J.r.r. tolkien's heirs.

If the rights revert to Christopher Tolkien not only will the 2 hobbit films never get made.  But their will be no more home video releases on blu ray or dvd of a trilogy that was produced in Breech of contract with the story authors heirs.

If the Estate receives their money their should be no foul right?

But in this case Christopher Tolkien did not like the artistic License Jackson and New Line made to his fathers books.  He believes they were butchered. 

Amazingly enough Simon Tolkien, Christopher Tolkiens eldest son from a previous marriage who never talks to his father and has a strained relationship with him Is one of Jackson's supporters and thinks Jackson kept the heart of his Grandfathers tales intact.

Turns out that The Silmarillion and all its parts have been protected by being sullied by Hollywood.  These works are protected except for the bare mention of them in the LotR, or the Hobbit plot,or lotr appendices.

Now i believe Christopher Tolkien has always been against his Fathers sale of the Rights to the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, since his father could not have predicted fifty some odd years after publishing the book it would make billions of dollars for a film studio at the expense of the Books being sullied.

Tolkien's Master work that was the work of his heart was the Silmarillion and remains Unfinished,  Lord of the Rings has become known as his Master work because it was finished and published and remains Consistant, mostly between its different parts.  Only certain little odd things remain in the final book that the average reader would miss like remnents of discarded drafts.  The beginning being mostly Light hearted and clearly a sequel to the hobbit still remains into the book.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Tiptup said:
Jay said:

The films weren't shot with HD cams; they were shot on Super35.

Hmm, I consider Super35 HD, since it has a highly defined image that is even above the 1080 pixel standard (and the lower, 780 standard is also called HD). Do people define it as not being "high definition" because they wish to reserve that term for digital mediums?

"HD cams" typically refers to digital video cameras. As I said after the sentence you quoted, film has a higher resolution than the HD standard (assuming we're talking about 35mm).

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Hmm, so Lord of the Rings was actaully shot on film.  Another reason why it is so much better than Star Wars Prequels.  Yeah Episode 1 was shot on Film.  But after it was scanned and made into a digital copy they did the color grading and made it look overly bright like a video game.  The same thing was done with Indiana Jones IV.

Too much cgi, colorist should be fired.  Makes the average viewer think they were shot on HDvideo.  Well at least Indiana Jones IV had lots of defined film grain like Lord of the Rings though the finished movie left a lot to be desired.  Episode 1's dvd looks like it had been heavily dvnr and has bad edge enhancement.

I cannot remember if the theater i saw it at was different.  Mostly i remember fine grain and stuff during the tatooine scenes.  Not sure if this detail is brought out in the HD bootleg.

One thing i don't like about Lord of the Rings is its unnatural color which was obviously a choice made in the digital grading of the image.  Overly blue and green hues, mostly cold blues.  Goldish Tones in some scenes etc.

Something similar was done to the Underworld films and Pans Labyrinthe to give it that aged stroybook look.  I kept thinking to myself peter jackson's go a little wild with the blue filter,lol.

Some films that unnintentionally also have these problems are Lowry clean up jobs.  I noticed this on star wars and empire strikes back, and from russia with love.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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skyjedi2005 said:

Hmm, so Lord of the Rings was actaully shot on film.  Another reason why it is so much better than Star Wars Prequels.  Yeah Episode 1 was shot on Film.  But after it was scanned and made into a digital copy they did the color grading and made it look overly bright like a video game.  The same thing was done with Indiana Jones IV.

Only you could take a discussion on LOTR and bring Star Wars into it.

One thing i don't like about Lord of the Rings is its unnatural color which was obviously a choice made in the digital grading of the image.  Overly blue and green hues, mostly cold blues.  Goldish Tones in some scenes etc.

Yes, it would depend on the scene.  The Shire was generally greener and browner to denote it's earth tones.  Helm's Deep probably had the cold blue and darker tones.  Gold tones were used for Galadriel and her realm.

 

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Jay said:

"HD cams" typically refers to digital video cameras. As I said after the sentence you quoted, film has a higher resolution than the HD standard (assuming we're talking about 35mm).

I guess that makes sense. And, yeah, I was referring to 35mm.

Hmm, for me the most striking difference between "HD cams" and traditional film cameras would be the way the image is captured and the resulting differences in the look of everything. (That probably has to do with some electrically manipulated surface inside "digitial" cameras that I've not looked into.) The look of digital images often has a slight, plastic look to everything that is odd.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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skyjedi2005 said:

If the rights revert to Christopher Tolkien not only will the 2 hobbit films never get made.  But their will be no more home video releases on blu ray or dvd of a trilogy that was produced in Breech of contract with the story authors heirs.

But in this case Christopher Tolkien did not like the artistic License Jackson and New Line made to his fathers books.  He believes they were butchered. 

Amazingly enough Simon Tolkien, Christopher Tolkiens eldest son from a previous marriage who never talks to his father and has a strained relationship with him Is one of Jackson's supporters and thinks Jackson kept the heart of his Grandfathers tales intact.Turns out that The Silmarillion and all its parts have been protected by being sullied by Hollywood.  These works are protected except for the bare mention of them in the LotR, or the Hobbit plot,or lotr appendices.

 

Well that's sad, I hope Christopher realizes with the amount of content in the original LOTR books it would take atleast 6 movies to cover the material if his gripe is they didn't tell the entire story, which they did leave out the whole War in the North with the elves and dwarfs attacking Dol GulDor, but really it didn't fit with the story of the Fellowship. So to sum it up I rather enjoyed Lord of the Rings, the trilogy is one of my favorite stories ever (and not to incite a Clerks II type of bashing back and forth) I still prefer the Star Wars Trilogy. I just need to get me that Blu Ray player or PS3 for christmas and I'm ready.

 

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Jay said:

Peter Jackson has said in interviews that he's been working on the Blu-ray release. I think we'll see them at some point next year, most likely as a box set with all three films. Hopefully we get the extended cuts in addition to the theatrical cuts and Warner doesn't force us to double dip.

The films weren't shot with HD cams; they were shot on Super35. Film has a higher "resolution" than HD, so that's actually a good thing. I'm very concerned that the recent anti-grain trend will lead to digital noise reduction on these releases, which removes film grain--along with high frequency detail. It's been a problem on many recent Blu-ray releases because of misguided studios trying to make films look "clearer" and more like video.

I doubt they'll have to redo the CG from the ground up. It was most likely rendered at 2K resolution during post production, which is slightly higher than HD's 1920x1080.

 

Okay, so what is the resolution of 35mm film, then? I asked this film fanatic at my university and he said it was unlimited. Sorry for sounding like I'm jumping the gun, but I'm calling bullshit. A picture has to have a finite amount of detail. There has to be a point where scanning it at a higher resolution would only pick up flaws in the film stock, if that.

As for grain removal, I've voice my opinion several times on here that I am not a fan of grain. However, I realize that grain removal needs to be done competently, and DNR just doesn't cut it. I'd rather have a cloud of filth over the picture than have it blurred to fuck and back. If they're going to do it, I hope they use Lowry. No blurring of detail AND no grain.

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Prepare for a lot of technobabble here - note that ASA is the exact same thing as speed with 35mm still film (100-"speed" vs 400-"speed" etc. - the number is the ASA).

The "resolution" of 35mm film depends on the ASA of the film stock used.  A film with a low ASA like 64 or so would have a very high resolution - before it's been processed, probably around 15k (though we'd never see that).  After it's been processed, the original negative could have up to 10k resolution.  This is because there are many more film grains, that are much smaller (this also results in a very non-grainy image).  The only problem with this is that you can't use this type of film for everything - you need a LOT of light to expose it.

Now, higher ASA's, like, say, 200 or 300, require less light, and are the most commonly used.  These films have less film grains, but they're larger, so it makes the image appear grainier.  Pre-processing, these would have roughly 12k or so resolution; post-processing, the original negative would ballpark around 8 or 9k.  These films are more forgiving as far as light goes, but still can't shoot in very low-light situations.

Now, the much higher ASA's, like 500, 700, or higher, can work in extremely low light.  They have even less grains than 200 or 300 stock, but they're even larger, so the image appears very grainy.  Pre-processing, these would have around 10k at the absolute maximum (probably closer to 8/9k).  After processing, the negative would have around a 5 or 6k resolution.

Now, these are original negatives, that have not been transferred to positive.  A release print of these (using the traditional conforming process) would have about 3k-6k resolution.  Today, though, many high-budget films scan the film negative at 2k or 4k, then print THAT back to film, which means the maximum resolution of that film, ever, no matter if you scanned it back from the new negative made, would be 2k or 4k, depending on how it was printed.

For example, the maximum resolution of "The Dark Knight" is 4k for the 35mm scenes, and 8k for the IMAX scenes, because they were scanned at those resolutions, edited in Avid at those resolutions, then printed back to film at those resolutions.

Also note the following:  Entire films use a variety of different film stocks and ASAs, so one film will not have the same perceived resolution for every shot or scene.

Also note that these are estimates based on my experience and what I've been tought in film school so far (sophomore year now), and that film does NOT have a "resolution" per se.  The maximum "resolution" of film is determined by scanning it at higher and higher resolutions until there is, finally, no longer a difference.  It's generally accepted that the vast majority of people can't notice a difference between the same film scanned at 4k and 6k, so 4k is generally accepted as the "maximum" resolution of film.

But again, it is an analog format, thus has no real "resolution" - the only resolution there would be is the number of grains on a particular frame, since that's equivalent to a "pixel," but by the nature of the way film is exposed, some frames would have a vastly different number of grains than others, not to mention that actually counting the grains in a frame is pretty much impossible.

There - I hope that helped.

Oh, and about film grain - saying you're not a fan of film grain is like saying that you're not a fan of pixels in HD video.  The only difference is that pixels in HD cannot change at all, while film grain is a chemical process that does change, even on the same shot.

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Film doesn't really have inherant "Resolution". When evaluating its sharpness we refer to its "resolving" power. This is dependent on many factors, mostly format (ie 16mm, 35mm, 65mm), lens quality and film stock. The bigger the format, the higher the image quality can be because its captured on a bigger area (ie 35mm is twice the size of 16mm, therefore its detail should yield double). Lenses probably make an equal difference, but most people don't consider this; some lenses are softer, some sharper, and it contributes greatly to the amount of detail captured. As ChainsawAsh stated, film speed plays a role as well, as fine grain, typically low speed, film can capture greater detail. Even things like shooting aperature can contribute to resolving power, since contrast levels change with your aperature.

All in all, its estimated that, under the best conditions, 35mm ideally resolves something like 5 times the amount of your standard 1080-HD. HD is really equivalent to modern 16mm. There's this perception that 16mm equates grainy old soft documentaries but nothing could be further from the truth.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Oh, and about film grain - saying you're not a fan of film grain is like saying that you're not a fan of pixels in HD video.  The only difference is that pixels in HD cannot change at all, while film grain is a chemical process that does change, even on the same shot.

I think you know what I meant: the tiny little spots that litter the picture and are not simply dirt particles. In my opinion, what matters is what was meant to be in the shot, what was meant to be seen. In other words, the actors, the sets, the props, and whatever special effects that are added in post. Anything and everything else must go. That's why I like Lowry. Not only does it remove the offending spots, but it fills them in with what most likely would have been there. I'd rather see simulated perfection than actual imperfection. Then again, I can understand the concerns of most of the people here (preservation of the films original form), but I'm a person who's more interested in aesthetics than historical preservation. Two different mindsets, that's all.

But thanks for the rundown on film detail. It was very interesting. So, by the time we reach Ultra-HD (that experimental format with... 7680x4320 resolution, I think), will we have basically hit the detail "ceiling"?

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Thats like saying we should remove brush strokes from oil paintings. Its part of the texture of the medium. Filmmakers and cinematographers are well aware that grain exists and work WITH it, chosing deliberate film stocks for the grain quality. This notion that grain=bad is firstly dumb but secondly ignorant. Its SUPPOSED to be there because its film.

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zombie84 said:

Thats like saying we should remove brush strokes from oil paintings. Its part of the texture of the medium. Filmmakers and cinematographers are well aware that grain exists and work WITH it, chosing deliberate film stocks for the grain quality. This notion that grain=bad is firstly dumb but secondly ignorant. Its SUPPOSED to be there because its film.

Exactly. Digital restoration is one thing, but grain removal is NOT restoration. It's destruction.

Like pan and scan vs. original aspect ratio during DVD's growth years, it looks like enthusiasts are going to have another battle against the clueless masses with Blu-ray thanks to DNR misused in the name of film grain removal and image "clarity."

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Johnboy3434 said:

but I'm a person who's more interested in aesthetics than historical preservation. Two different mindsets, that's all.

The thing is, the amount of grain present in a shot is an AESTHETIC choice by the cinematographer.  They could have gone with a finer-grained film stock while using more light, but they didn't.

I understand your argument, but as a preservationist, I can't accept it - that's like saying that old effects should be updated to meet current technological standards because it's ugly in comparison to what we see now.  While there are those who would argue for that, the concept horrifies me.

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ChainsawAsh said:

I understand your argument, but as a preservationist, I can't accept it - that's like saying that old effects should be updated to meet current technological standards because it's ugly in comparison to what we see now. While there are those who would argue for that, the concept horrifies me.

 

I don't see that as the same argument at all. Old effects, ugly or not, were deliberately added. The directors didn't have a choice of whether the grain was there or not. If grain were deliberately added by the filmmakers, then I would be against removing it, because its presence was a conscious choice. However, with natural grain, there was no choice. Yes, they could choose between different film stocks for variations in the grain level, but they didn't have the opportunity to buy No Grain Film Stock (C).

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Johnboy3434 said:
ChainsawAsh said:

I understand your argument, but as a preservationist, I can't accept it - that's like saying that old effects should be updated to meet current technological standards because it's ugly in comparison to what we see now. While there are those who would argue for that, the concept horrifies me.

 

I don't see that as the same argument at all. Old effects, ugly or not, were deliberately added. The directors didn't have a choice of whether the grain was there or not. If grain were deliberately added by the filmmakers, then I would be against removing it, because its presence was a conscious choice. However, with natural grain, there was no choice. Yes, they could choose between different film stocks for variations in the grain level, but they didn't have the opportunity to buy No Grain Film Stock (C).

 

Your argument is flawed because you assume that cinematographers would always chose the film stock which would show the least grain and that their ideal is to have none, but often a film stock is chosen specifically because it shows more grain. So film grain may not have been deliberately added but a deliberate artistic choice has been made not to minimize it.

Your argument is little different to saying that all Black and white film should be colorized because filmmakers didn't have the choice to use colour film, but that would be making the assumption that colour is better and if that is true why do people still use black and white film?

The truth is when films are made the prople making them have a very good idea how they will look when they are finished and by removing the grain your are changing the final result, the intended result, and that's just wrong. By all means clean a classic painting remove every bit of dirt but don't remove the brushstrokes, they are meant to be there they are part of the artists intention.

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Johnboy3434 said:

In my opinion, what matters is what was meant to be in the shot, what was meant to be seen. In other words, the actors, the sets, the props, and whatever special effects that are added in post. Anything and everything else must go. That's why I like Lowry. Not only does it remove the offending spots, but it fills them in with what most likely would have been there. I'd rather see simulated perfection than actual imperfection.

D'oh!  *slaps hand on forehead and shakes head in despair*

These types of conversations remind me of the countless conversations I have had with people who feel full screen is better than wide screen because "it doesn't have those black bars covering up half the picture". Of course film grain is a slightly more complex subject, but you still have people who will never understand it no matter how well you explain it to them. It is like trying to teach grandma and grandpa how to use the VCR.

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Well, all this debate may soon be a moot point:

RED (the digital camera company responsible for the world's first 4k and, later, 6k digital camera systems) has unveiled their newest product: the RED EPIC, which, by 2010, will be capable of ... this is NOT an exaggeration or joke ... 28k digital recording.  That's right - 28k.  As in twenty eight thousand.  28,000 x 9,334 pixels (that's right, a native 3:1 aspect ratio - other aspect ratios, such as anamorphic 2.39:1, accomplished using non-square pixels, I believe).

This completely blows the maximum resolution of film out of the water.  General consensus (and this is PUSHING it, believe me) puts 70mm and IMAX film at 10-15k maximum resolution.  This is about twice that.

If this becomes cost-effective, and editing setups can online this massive resolution of footage, then I, with extreme sadness, predict the death of film by the end of the next decade (that is, 2020).  It will happen the same way film editing switched to digital.  Once it becomes cost-effective and the quality debate is negligible, that's the end.

http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/

Here's a size comparison of NTSC video, 720/1080 HD, 2k, 4k, RED 2540, RED 5k, RED 6k, UHDV (which, in tests, caused motion sickness in several audience members when projected at full resolution), and RED 9k.

This new 28k system will be MORE than THREE TIMES the size of the 9k frame, which is the largest one in this picture.  It is heavily debatable if 35mm film is even equivalent to 9k, much less 28k.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/UHDV2.svg

I'd hoped something like this would be years upon years away from us, but apparently, I was wrong.

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I've heard the Lord of the Rings will come 2009 to BluRay. First as Cinema-Versions. Later when The Hobbit is coming the Extended will be released as BluRays.

There also are some comparison shots between DVD and HD Quality for FOTR.

http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/index.html

"I kill Gandalf." - Igor, Dork Tower

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Its not just resolution though. Its the quality of the image. I would never shoot on the RED because it doesn't look very nice, I can shoot with 16mm for the same price and it will look beautiful. Until HD gets its aesthetics worked out, it aint going anywhere with DP's. They solved the depth of field problem, the color space issue almost worked out, but there's still a lot of issues with image quality. Resolution is simple, its just a storage issue, thats the most elementary to solve and it really was a matter of time before it appeared. And case in point, its irrelevent--35mm is not the be-all end-all for resolution. Theres IMAX and 65mm. Why isn't everyone shooting in IMAX and 65mm? Why arent most TV series and feature films shot in these formats? Because going beyond 35mm resolution was never the problem. Cost and feasibility is. There's no way 28K would ever be practical, and even when you start shooting in 10K there is enormous post-flow logistics that simply aren't cost-effective. 35mm became the standard because it was the most efficient trade-off between cost, affordability, and quality. While its exciting that the next-gen RED cams are making steps in HD, I think most people sort of suspected that we would see HD sort of competing and/or overtaking film by 2020 anyway.

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ChainsawAsh said:

If this becomes cost-effective, and editing setups can online this massive resolution of footage, then I, with extreme sadness, predict the death of film by the end of the next decade (that is, 2020).  It will happen the same way film editing switched to digital.  Once it becomes cost-effective and the quality debate is negligible, that's the end.

Is that a bad thing?  I'm not a videophile and I'm certainly no expert, but if the difference in quality becomes negligible, I certainly don't see that as a bad thing.  Obviously there won't be any grain after that, but I don't think I'd even call that a negative for digital.  Since grain is just the way film is, then the death of film would mean the end of grain, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

So, as a serious question, is the death of 35mm a bad thing and why?

 

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To me, that question is similar to the question "is the death of the oil painting a bad things and why". If the use of film were to come to an end, it would be the loss of an art form. Unfortunate that a form of art should be lost due to advancing technology, but so it goes. But, I do not see that happening anytime soon, too many people still have an appreciation for film, just like some professional photographers who can't stand digital, I have faith that plenty of film makers will continue to consider film superior to digital, even with digital making major advancements, it just isn't the same thing.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape