Revenge of the Sith: Awful message — Page 2

TheBoost said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

TheBoost said:

Well, Anakin WAS willing to kill a bunch of little kids if it offered him a chance to keep the love he felt he needed.

 

 Which is the bad message of the film -a message of "Love is bad, it makes you kill kiddies."

Or perhaps "If you're willing to kill a bunch of kids rather that let totally natural things like death happen, you really need to work on letting go."

Love didn't drive Anakin to kill those kids. Possessivness, greed, fear, and anger did. You know... the Dark Side.

The fact that either of those messages can be taken from the film shows how George Lucas has changed. Either he's a lot sloppier than he used to be or he doesn't care about clear moral messages for Star Wars anymore. In the latter case, an argument about an intentional message is rather worthless.

Doesn't necessarily mean he knows what's best for Star Wars, though.  ^_~

How about it was just plain lazy filmaking.  It was in the movie because it was in the script.  Anakin has to turn to  the dark side. 

There is no choice in the matter he either goes bad or the original trilogy events are forever altered or never even happened.

One minute he's a good guy the next he's killing younglings. 

The movie and the prophecy pretty much state it was his fate to turn to the dark side, and as it was fated by the force anakin had no free will in the matter because he had more midi chlorians than everyone and was the chosen one, Plus he had daddy issues since he was conceived by the force and had no father.

The Force is neutral it is neither good or evil.  Being a nod to eastern Belief.  The force did not care about the murders of the younglings.  The suffering of billions in the Civil War, it did not care Padme was killed, or that Luke and Leia were put through absolute hell because of their dad.  It all simply happened because the force wanted balance because there were too many jedi in the galaxy and only 2 sith.

So basically Revenge of the Sith's message is that people have no free will at all and are only pawns of the fates like humans were in the greek myths.  Like Oedipus who by trying to deny his fate actually brings it about.  I reject this view whole heartedly because i believe Human beings have free will.

Still i don't think Lucas was trying to sell some overt message it was just in the script.  Things had to all go to hell to lead up to events in episode IV, or just star wars if you prefer. 

I thought peoples Grievances (no pun intended) with sith were that the turn scenes were basically unbelievable and happened on the spur of the moment.  Not the idea of Anakins Fall but the way Lucas botched it.

The slow kind of Build up to a fall for desire of power, the corruption, the addictive nature and Seduction that realistically would have taken several films to lead up to and explain.  It was beautifully hinted at and described in Empire Strikes back by Yoda and Obi wan in Return of the Jedi.  Why did Lucas have to ruin that.   He also ruined the scene of Leia remembering Padme from when she was a little girl on Alderaan.  Padme was not originally  susposed to die in Childbirth or of a broken heart.

Then again everything about the prequels stink.  Vader and Fett and the Mandalores were supposed to hunt down and kill all the jedi.  Lucas ruined the mandalorian backstory.  He also removed the cloned jedi subplot.

He ruined the fact that Yoda was supposed to Be Obi Wan's Master, then we get to episode 1 and some non existant character named Qui Gon appears.  

Jar Jar obviously was never one of the concepts for the original prequels ideas between Lucas and Kurtz.

Anakin was not going to be shown starting out as a little boy in the story or building C-3P0.

The threepio thing must be lucas humor because Vader becomes more machine than man and is dehumanized while the droid he created acts more Human than Vader. 

Anakin as a slave thing also is a wondefully neat idea because anakin is never really free.  First he is a slave on tatooine.  Then a slave to the jedi order and their ethics, then a slave to evil and the dark side and he even gets imprisoned in an iron suit and buries his Humanity within himself.  Even changes his name.

The only time he is free is when he saves Luke on the Death Star II and then in death.  Up until then he was always a slave in one way or another, like he was a slave to his passions for Padme.

Love and Marriage should be a very positive and liberating thing instead it was another trap for poor anakin.  Because the Jedi are not allowed to love.  are not allowed to feal.  are susposed to remain distanced from emotions.

The jedi rejected Anakin out of fear, and out of jealousy for his abilities.  But they also made him reject his essential Humanity.  Why should he be forbidden to Have Sexual relations with Padme,  Why are the jedi against Nature and the order of the cosmos.  I mean its not like he was not Married or was just shacking up with some random whore.  Where do jedi children come from if they are not allowed to pass on their dna to children.

I think its great that the old Jedi order and its ways died and Luke started a new jedi order built on love and tolerance.  I could care less if it is not canon since it is to me since Lucas is not going to make the sequels.  Luke Marries Mara Jade and they don't have to hide their relationship.  They are allowed to love and they raise their son Ben.

I mean the title Return Of the Jedi hints that luke must establish a new jedi order with Him as the First new Jedi.  Automatically being elevated to Grand Master just like Yoda on the Old jedi Council.  And the first person he would teach of Course would be his sister leia.

Gaffer Tape said:

Zombie is actually getting Secret History published?!  Amazing!  I've read that all the way through twice now, and one of the first things he says in the book is how the nature of it would probably keep it from ever being published!  I'm glad to see he managed to work something out.

Kind of off topic, but I just stumpled upon this. http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html If you click on the link and think "What the hell? What's this have to do with anything" just scroll down.

Looks good, pretty generic cover, but of course he couldn't use anything that is copyright. Pretty steep price tag, but I think I will eventually purchase one anyway. Would be cool to have a hard copy lying around and Zombie put a lot of hard work into it, he deserves to get something for it, even if it is just whatever fraction of that price tag the publisher gives him.

C3PX said:

Gaffer Tape said:

Zombie is actually getting Secret History published?!  Amazing!  I've read that all the way through twice now, and one of the first things he says in the book is how the nature of it would probably keep it from ever being published!  I'm glad to see he managed to work something out.

 

Kind of off topic, but I just stumpled upon this. http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html If you click on the link and think "What the hell? What's this have to do with anything" just scroll down.

Looks good, pretty generic cover, but of course he couldn't use anything that is copyright. Pretty steep price tag, but I think I will eventually purchase one anyway. Would be cool to have a hard copy lying around and Zombie put a lot of hard work into it, he deserves to get something for it, even if it is just whatever fraction of that price tag the publisher gives him.

Wow, I might try to pick that up.  Even though I already own the pdf, zombie definitely deserves some recompense for all his hard work!

C3PX said:

Kind of off topic, but I just stumpled upon this. http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html If you click on the link and think "What the hell? What's this have to do with anything" just scroll down.

Looks good, pretty generic cover, but of course he couldn't use anything that is copyright. Pretty steep price tag, but I think I will eventually purchase one anyway. Would be cool to have a hard copy lying around and Zombie put a lot of hard work into it, he deserves to get something for it, even if it is just whatever fraction of that price tag the publisher gives him.

Cool man. Congratulations Zombie.

The price is a bit step but I think I'd pay it. I still haven't read it all, most of it in sections though. I just don't like reading that much text off the computer screen so that's why what I've read has been in pieces. I know I could print it out but the book would be handy.

TheBoost said:

Do you turn on "Cops" and see some wife-beater and say "Love leads to wifebeating, what a screwed up message."

Cops doesn't have a clear authority figure like Yoda telling kids that loving attachment is bad. If George had Yoda teach that because he wanted to show that the Jedi were corrupt, then that's okay, but it confuses his moral message to have the top good guy saying something like that.

TheBoost said:

Anakin doesn't go bad for love. He doesn't even go bad to save Padme's life in any clear way (it's not like a special medicine is being kept from him in the Jedi Temple). He goes bad in order to achieve power to alter the natural order of things because he's unwilling to let go of his attachments. His hubris is what leads to his evil actions.

Yoda was right. Anakin needed to be willing to let go. Yoda is so right that Anakin is even the one who caused her to die. Yoda was right when he told Luke not to go to Cloud City, but Luke did it because he was afraid to lose the people he loved.

Hmm, interesting perspective. For my part, I don't think Anakin had anything like hubris. Sure he is portrayed in the films as over confident and cocky, but more often than not, I think we see Anakin questioning himself and being uncertian of things. I think his overconfidence was compensation for his self doubt. In his character I didn't see a man who wanted more than anything to be able to have great power and be able to stop people from dying for the sake of having great power, he wanted this power to protect the thing he loved so much he didn't think he could live without it. Anakin was scared of loosing the thing he held so dearly. Which is why the movie makes no sense at all. 

I never saw Anakin as a very powerful person, not someone who was overly proud of himself, but someone who was disappointed in how powerless he precieved himself to be. I don't think hubris can be attributed to that kind of a character. He seems more like a loser who never came to terms with the realities of life, and gets so pissed off at the fact that people close to him might die, he goes on a 20+ year killing spree.

I think a story of hubris leading Anakin to the Dark Side would have been a much more enjoyable story that could have actually stood up under its own weight. Imagine Anakin becoming one of the most powerful Jedi of the Order. A true selfless hero who everybody loved. As his power in the force goes stronger, he craves it more and more. He has long since excelled beyond anything the Jedi masters can teach him, and he starts dabling in the secrets of the Sith. He knows it is forbidden, but he is Anakin Skywalker after all, perhaps one of the most powerful Jedi the galaxy has ever known, lesser Jedi may succumb to the seduction of the Dark Side, but not him. He could control it, tame it, bend this evil aspect of the Force and use it for good. At first he finds he can control it so well, he drops his guard, its child's play. The Dark Side of the Force is no match for the Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker, it is slave to him. Slowly he starts to exhibit questionable bypassing of morals. Perhaps he captures a bad guy and uses the Dark Side to bring him within an ich of his life in order to get important information from him that will save lives, after all, what is a little use of questionable methods when lives are at stake? Eventually he uses this power to do something that causes the loss of many civilian lives, but it is a time of war, and they allied themselves on the wrong side, what are a few civilian casualties in exchanged for the success of major military victory? As time goes on, Anakin's morals begin to slip more and more, but he can never admit to himself that he is becoming a slave of the Dark Side. He still believes he is in complete control, and he has become too attatched to his new found power, suddenly the power he learned from the Jedi feels pithy and pathetic, the true power of the Force lies in its dark side. He cannot let it go, and why should he? He is still the one who possesses it, it does not possess him. The other Jedi start to notice Anakin's behavior change, the man who once would go through every effort to capture enemies unharmed rather than kill them, has grown cold, now showing little regard for the lives of his own men, willing to send them on sucide missions for the sake of victory. They confront him, he denies that he has lost control, he feels they are jelous of his power. The confrontation gets heated and he looses his temper, killing one of the Jedi. He runs away, surprised at his own actions, but feeling no guilt and even justifying himself. He is kicked out of the order, if the Jedi find him, they are to kill him. It could be at this time that his wife tells him it is over, and he discovers Palpatine, a general in the Republic Navy. Palpatine could approach him and reveal to him that he is the Sith Lord the Jedi have been hunting, and that he can teach Anakin how to control his newfound powers, and how to tap even deeper into the Dark Side of the Force. Anakin doesn't see Palpatine as a bad guy, he reasons the only reason the Jedi hunt down Sith are because they are afraid of that power, but being a Sith doesn't have to mean evil. He deludes himself again and again, justifying every evil thing he does as he begins secretly helping General Palpatine rise in power, both military power and political power (perhaps he eventually declares martial law after some tradgedy, made possible by Anakin, kills many of the political leaders of the Republic, angry, the people are all to happy to hand the government over to such an experienced war hero), as he begins killing Jedi after Jedi, at first in self defense, and then by hunting for them. Evetually his old master confronts him, but he doesn't come to kill his old friend, he comes to redeem him, to bring him back to the light side. The attempt ends in heartache as he is forced to fight his friend in self defense, as the battle progresses, Obi-Wan is forced to choose between his own life or the life of his friend, and watches as the man he considered his brother plunges to his death. Now we would have an interesting story of hubris leading a hero to his fall.   

(Also with the above scenario, there would be less issues coming into episode 4. While the audience would clearly see that Obi-Wan is lying to Luke about Darth Vader killing his father, the audience could sympathize with Obi-Wan. He simply does not want the boy to know his father turned bad, and that he was forced to kill his best friend. Something he deeply regrets, and blames on the corrupting power of the dark side, so instead he tells Luke Anakin's successor as Palpatine's apprentice, Darth Vader, is the one who killed him. Of course, while Obi-Wan had thought Anakin dead, sometime before the end of the prequel trilogy he would have discovered the truth, that his friend was resurrected/survived with the help of artifical body parts and the power of the dark side.)

But alas, he turns bad to save her and by doing so kills her.

TheBoost said:

Yoda was right. Anakin needed to be willing to let go. Yoda is so right that Anakin is even the one who caused her to die. Yoda was right when he told Luke not to go to Cloud City, but Luke did it because he was afraid to lose the people he loved.

First, Anakin did not commit all of his heinous crimes because he was unwilling to "let go." Anakin was a self-centered, psychopathic jerk who killed little children over absolutely nothing that could even be slightly construed as good. The life of his wife and mother were just selfish lies that made the little bastard feel good about himself as he killed babies.

Second, attachment and possession is what happens whenever people fall in love. It's impossible to not have attachment and possession and still have anything close to real love. Just because any action can be done in an evil way doesn't mean that you throw out the baby with the bathwater as Yoda does in his teachings.

Thirdly, to the degree you can argue about who was right in Empire's plot line. Luke was the hero and more portrayed as "right" by the movie than Yoda was. In the end helped his friends and got away with his life. Yoda was only portrayed as right to the degree that Luke may have been taking too big of a risk.