STAR WARS: EP V "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - 12GB 1080p MP4 VERSION AVAILABLE NOW — Page 54

GoodMusician wrote:

 

The original cue is too loud and distracting... lol

Distracting from what? Watching a little pod fly through space... this isn't dialogue! lol

You have to realize that Empire Strikes Back is the OPPOSITE of a normal film. The characters end up in a worse place then they began.

The music, as such, does the opposite as well... the big battle is in the beginning of the film, with the "big" internal battle at the end... to kinda balance it out...

But its really like a normal film backwards... this would explain why williams wrote sooo much music for the opening of the film... becuase normally only the end has a lot of music...

Notice too that at the end of the film, not a lot of music is used (the battle between Luke and Vader for example)

But yea... I can see why people want the other... but at the same time, I worked very hard to try to fix the film version of "Probe Droid" but the release is flawed. The horns are flipped and the mixing is all wrong.

Unless hes ok with that or don't plan to change the sync of the music... then I suggest trying the original unused one.

Lol, yes the Williams unused probe droid cue is loud and distracting. Why would you want music during the probe droid sequence anyway, I really want to know lol.

It's just loud enough that it drounds out the sound FX do a degree, and the sound FX isn't really all that loud for the most part during the sequence either. Thats my main beef with the unused original cue.

Anyway, this is Adys edit so if he wants to use it I cant stop him.

It doesn't make any sence to change the music levels to compliment the sound FX in this case. The original unused cue was meant to be played loud.  Either it's incorporated they way it is or it's not used at all. Boosting the level of the sound FX is not a good idea either because you will loose the impact of the music. They both have to balance each other out. Thats the problem with the unused cue, it doesn't balance very well with the sound FX, and that makes it distracting. I really don't see why anybody would want the unused cue over the well established film cue which compliments the sound FX alot better reguardless of the continuity flaw, which has never bothered me or anyone I know for that matter.

GoodMusician, thanks for your mix of the original score.  If nothing else, I like seeing it preserved.  I would think it was too much for a project like this, but Ady added "Battle of the Heroes" to A New Hope, and at least this was originally written for this movie.  Like Lucas probably vetoed the original cut like you showed, Ady may do the opposite.  In the end it wasn't up to John Williams and its not up to us, its up to the director.

May Ady's will be done.

GoodMusician said:

The original cue is too loud and distracting... lol

Distracting from what? Watching a little pod fly through space... this isn't dialogue! lol

You have to realize that Empire Strikes Back is the OPPOSITE of a normal film. The characters end up in a worse place then they began.

The music, as such, does the opposite as well... the big battle is in the beginning of the film, with the "big" internal battle at the end... to kinda balance it out...

But its really like a normal film backwards... this would explain why williams wrote sooo much music for the opening of the film... becuase normally only the end has a lot of music...

Notice too that at the end of the film, not a lot of music is used (the battle between Luke and Vader for example)

But yea... I can see why people want the other... but at the same time, I worked very hard to try to fix the film version of "Probe Droid" but the release is flawed. The horns are flipped and the mixing is all wrong.

Unless hes ok with that or don't plan to change the sync of the music... then I suggest trying the original unused one.

Dear Good Musician

1.You made a great and probably completely correct edit of that composed music with the picture on your last video post here. Congratulations for that, you are a true fan of this films.

2. As "good musician", you probably know that silence is one of the most important things in music... espetially in movies.

3. We can not know WHY EXACTLY  so many  music exists for that opening of Empire. You think it's deliberately to show "the reverse movie", I think it's a normal scoring process, somebody else thinks something else. The only way to find that one out would be to ask John Williams himself

4. Although the music goes well along with scenes in your edit as it allways does with Williams, I think IMO IMO :-) :

a) "probe droid apperance"- music in your cut sounds more to be intended for "Luke on Tauntaun's apperance riding in snow" which probably was 1.st intenton of an editor without probe falling down to Hoth twice but once

b)  your replacement of the echo-station fanfare with continuation of previous music unfortunately (musically) suggests that rebel base is very near poor Luke wich lessses the tension. Fanfare made of hornes and trombones sounded strong and safe as a contrast to Luke's position. I would like to keep them where they are for a strong contrast's sake

c)  I understand the argument of "reversity of a classic screenplay-movie- structure", but it's originally done in some quiet way and not as the main thing. This issues usually come along after seeing a movie a 1000th time when one gives more attention to the structure then to what's going on in the movie. For the sake of the latter, I think Lucas was right removing the music in places. Hoth sequences are even colder that way, Luke is really lonely that way, the movie really "starts" and dont suddenly "lasts"(as in your cut) that way, Han is really lost that way, strong icy wind doesn't disturb music that way (or vice versa - that sounds really weird in your cut athough not so intended when composed), the duell in Bespin is scarier that way,  and the whole opening of a movie doesn't sound like a cheap scored 30's movie. I wold like it to remain that way but with completely remastered score getting more  spectrum and brightness in sound, like ROTJ.

d) A genius composer like Williams can compose anything for everything - it'll always sound great. BUT there are another people working on the movie too , and they have their arguments too, it's a team work (maybe I should not write such stuff here but sometimes one seems to forget that) as this here is too.

f) I would suggest Ady to let you underscore the whole silent version of this movie with him because it would be great to recover the whole score for that occasion like he did on a DVD-9 of ANH-R. That would be really great thing!!!!!!!!!!!

Greets from another musician

I agree fully with the use of the replacement cue for the opening, as it's more sinister and subtle. The original wasn't right for establishing the darker, more serious mood the film intended to be.

The scoring process is all trial and error, as a film can take on a whole new personality with music applied to it. It can literally make or break a film's tone, turn it from a serious story and world you believe into just a 'movie' and a lot of the time revisions are made to get the right mood, the right atmosphere.

AuggieBenDoggie said:

It doesn't make any sence to change the music levels to compliment the sound FX in this case. The original unused cue was meant to be played loud. Either it's incorporated they way it is or it's not used at all. Boosting the level of the sound FX is not a good idea either because you will loose the impact of the music. They both have to balance each other out. Thats the problem with the unused cue, it doesn't balance very well with the sound FX, and that makes it distracting. I really don't see why anybody would want the unused cue over the well established film cue which compliments the sound FX alot better reguardless of the continuity flaw, which has never bothered me or anyone I know for that matter.

Who says that the way you're hearing it in GM's examples are the levels they would have been mixed at for the film itself?  Or for that matter, what makes you think that a store bought audio CD and video DVD - made YEARS APART, mind you - were done at the same audio levels?  The point of GM's examples was to show how the music synced to the film as far as timing and content, not audio mixing quality.  That's a whole separate phase of the sound process.

I've just had a look at your clips GoodMusician and it's i can now see why they didn't use the original score. it was definitely for a different edit of the opening. the music where the probe droid emerges does sound more like its for the the taun taun running than for the probe droid so maybe that wasn't revealed until after Luke was attacked. Also i think there may have been an extra shot of the probe flying through space. I've done a rough mock-up of the scene but slowed down some shots to fit the cues so they look odd. it would be so great if we could find some documentation of what the original edit was like.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LLCTKMOU

I do have to say though that i actually now prefer the fanfare at the end that what was originally intended. I'm probably going to keep that in and change the one at the end of the Vader meditation scene.

adywan said:

I've just had a look at your clips GoodMusician and it's i can now see why they didn't use the original score. it was definitely for a different edit of the opening. the music where the probe droid emerges does sound more like its for the the taun taun running than for the probe droid so maybe that wasn't revealed until after Luke was attacked. Also i think there may have been an extra shot of the probe flying through space. I've done a rough mock-up of the scene but slowed down some shots to fit the cues so they look odd. it would be so great if we could find some documentation of what the original edit was like.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LLCTKMOU

I do have to say though that i actually now prefer the fanfare at the end that what was originally intended. I'm probably going to keep that in and change the one at the end of the Vader meditation scene.

Change the other use of it...  Why didn't any of us think of that?  Leave it to Ady to not just state the obvious, but re-edit the opening sequence just to see what it might have been like.

Here is a bit of Metassino's break down of the score that you got if you bought the original SE with the booklets.

Here's him speaking about the ORIGINAL cue:

" The "Main Title" leads into The Ice Planet Hoth, the beginning of which was eventually rescored with "The Imperial Probe" (see track 4). Both versions start with dancing flutes and a rising horn phrase over which Darth Vader's theme is introduced by a solo piccolo. This original version continues with the entrance of trumpets, leading the orchestra to a great crescendo of Vader's theme and beginning an extended sequence of more than sixteen minutes of continuous music. Nine minutes of this music was either dropped, rescored, or replaced by other cues. A grandiose passage leads to a rhythmic section featuring the tuba, followed by a sudden quietness as Luke's tauntaun is seen striding across the glacier. Strains of the main Star Wars theme are played by a solo trumpet as Luke appears, and then, as he converses via comlink with Han Solo, the French horns introduce the new theme for Han and his growing relationship with Princess Leia. Bombastic percussion and trumpets intervene when Luke is suddenly attacked by a wampa ice creature. This is followed by unused militaristic music for Han Solo's arrival at the Rebel base."

Here is him talking about the alternate which is used in the film.

"Following Luke's recovery, the focus returns to The Imperial Probe, beginning here with the subtle, atmospheric piece which in the finished film replaced the first portion of "The Ice Planet Hoth." Vader's theme is again played by solo piccolo, and then suggested subtly by the quiet chord progressions heard during the probot's landing."

I honestly do NOT believe the sequence was changed at all EXCEPTING in the music. Metassino would have mentioned it. If you read his work for, say, return of the Jedi, when he talks about the opening cue, he explains how the final portion was for a never before seen edit of the film.

I don't want to be rude, but that really how it was intended... AND how it was suppose to be synced. In the film it's a few seconds off from that syncing... which would be my only advice to Ady if you choose to use the version in the film, see about resyncing it.

I'll post an example.

As for the original being too loud... You have to jump back to the year this came out... people had just finished the phenomominon that was Star Wars... now they're going to see the new one... and THIS is how it begins... Not with the good guys... not with seeing the falcon or Han solo... or Even a planet really... It begins with a star destroyer shooting little things out which until it crashes and opens, you don't realize is a probe droid.

I think the music could go either way. Personally, I never really like how the quieter music fit... but if williams had made a third alternate of quiet music that fit as well as the loud original version, I'd say to use that...

EDIT: to then comment on your edit Ady, it's kinda cool... but I think it speeds things up a ALOT...

The thing you all aren't getting is that the music you say should cover Luke on the taun taun from the distance is a DIRECT QUOTE of the music from the Probe Droid Destruction sequence!!... lol... so it's...quite evident it was meant to cover the Probe Droids reveal...

Which in a way kinda works how you have Ady... it kinda hints to what it was and tells you (musically) what it is... but visually it hides it...

The only issue I think is that for people to get it, they'd have to have heard the "Probe Droid Reconnassiance" cue...and if they havn't, they might not understand it to mean such...