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The Secret History of Star Wars — Page 5

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Its not a matter of denotation and connotation. Its much like the word "sin"; thats a specific term for a specific facet of Christian theology, with defined meanings and sets of definitions. There are many different sins, and detailed laws concerning what is a sin and what is not. The name itself is exclusive to Christianity, theologically speaking, and it has specific usages within that theology. But its used in non-Christian contexts. People casually use the word "sin" to describe things that are "bad", things that are immoral or appalling--this is far from the actual Christian definition and usage of the word sin, Biblically speaking, which has specific context. It has evolved a seperate, non-Christian meaning, regardless of the Christian roots that the word has.
This is not quite an exact parallel, but its approximate.

Like I said, the "immaculate conception" is not in the revision I am doing right now, but dogmatic Christians should know that it is used in non-Christian contexts in the manner in which I used it. I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I think you are splitting hairs about something that is, at the very least, debatable, and in most peoples understanding even acceptable.
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Sin is literally a transgression or violation against a law. It's not hard to apply that concept to other uses. However, the word "sin" has certain connotations. It implies a moral transgression rather than a general transgression. In proper English, one wouldn't describe a parking infraction as a sin. There's even some specific Catholic sin concepts that do go along with your thinking. Mortal sins, venial sins, etc. can be used in non-religious settings despite their religious roots. However, the term "Original Sin" is irretrievably religious and generally Catholic. Original Sin is a specific Christian concept referring to a sin committed by Adam and Eve and inherited by all of their offspring. Judaism nor Islam has it. It is not used in any other context except to invoke the first sin of mankind. Now, it can perhaps be used metaphorically in non-Christian contexts, but it's still meant to evoke the concept of a primary sin that is revisited upon heirs. I think that's what you are getting at. Despite its religious meanings it can be used in non-religious contexts meant to merely evoke the idea. The difference is that it is being used correctly. The meaning is right. With immaculate conception, when used metaphorically to evoke the virgin birth of Christ in comparison to the subject in discussion (be it Anakin or Perseus), it doesn't matter, it's still the wrong term. It's like talking about fruit and picking up a tomato and calling it a banana. It doesn't matter if a million people call it a banana, it's still a tomato. Some people do use it out of ignorance. Once they have been educated, they lose the excuse.

Our concern is not that you are using a religious phrase. I'm an atheist. I just care about using the correct phrase. Using a malapropism makes the user sound like Don King or even Tony Soprano. It has no place in a serious discussion, which I consider the Secret History of Star Wars to be.

Anyway, as I said, I really didn't want to make it a big deal (someone came in and repeated verbatim everything I had said which makes it seem like ganging up). You've corrected it, which is all we asked. I suppose now we're just getting caught up in trying to convince you. Either you are going to be convinced or you won't. It can't be forced. All I can do is point out the fallacy and let it go. It's not really important. I've been doing it since Phantom Menace came out (the phrase never really came up in conversation much until Anakin, hence most people's confusion-They hear the term and it seems to be an elegant way of referring to the virgin birth. Most people are shocked to find out it actually refers to such an esoteric concept.) and I probably will keep on. I'm the kind of person that when I get an email forward, I do the research (never takes more than a couple minutes) and send it back to everyone on the list pointing out what complete nonsense the letter is and how they should look this stuff up before they send it out (Barack Obama did not swear in on a Koran, for example). After a while they stop sending them to me. Most people would rather wallow in ignorance than embrace the truth. Sometimes I get carried away. If this whole discussion seemed that way then I apologize. It really was meant to be nothing more than a typo correction. Again, keep up the good work. We really all appreciate it.
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Congrats on the major blog run of late! Have you figured out what sparked this interest?
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Holy crap, I read this "book" ages ago and loved every bit of it but I never knew zombie was the guy behind it! Great work, man!

I dig the hell out of the prequels but even I have to admit that the trilogy would've gone smoother had Lucas drafted scripts (or at least outlines) for all three films back in 1994 rather than tackling each film as it's own independent entity.
My preference is simple. I want remastered versions of precisely what we saw and heard for each Star Wars film on opening day.
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none said:

Congrats on the major blog run of late! Have you figured out what sparked this interest?
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Thanks. I'm not sure what you mean "have you figured out what sparked this interest"; you mean in the scripting of Star Wars? I don't know, for some reason its always interested me, it has a very interesting and unique creative evolution, and the fact that a lot of it wasn't known gave me the patience to spend three years writing a book about it. I've been continuing writing articles for the site because I continue to find interesting things to report about the series (much to my own surprise)!

I guess I should also use this opportunity to say that there is a third edition of the book out now that finally has re-edited things to make it read better. Its a pretty drastic improvement I'd say. Hopefully, future readers will now have a semi-professional-quality document to read, instead of the more amaturish thing that the earliest readers suffered through. :p
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I was curious why the third edition would all of a sudden gain notoriety on sites like <a href="http://entertainment.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/21/2250231" title="http://entertainment.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/21/2250231" target="_blank">/.</a>, etc. (i've seen your ebook mentioned in places i wasn't expecting) great to see, i guess with Indy/George connection people are itching for tie-in topics of merit.
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Yeah Slashdot picked it up and they get like a million viewers a day so all of a sudden about a hundred other news blogs started reporting it. I even saw it on one of the L.A. Times blogs. Frankly, I've been amazed at how many people know about it because I've never advertised it, except once as a news bulletin at TF.N
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Congratulations for your achievement. Is the HTML version of the book actually available?
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I downloaded this back when the second edition was posted, but i'm just now finally reading it. I'm only to chapter 2, but i have to say you've done an excellent job & i think this book is FAR more deserving of being published than about 99% of books about Star Wars. REALLY well researched & put together. Thanks Zombie!
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canofhumdingers said:

I downloaded this back when the second edition was posted, but i'm just now finally reading it. I'm only to chapter 2, but i have to say you've done an excellent job & i think this book is FAR more deserving of being published than about 99% of books about Star Wars. REALLY well researched & put together. Thanks Zombie!


Are you reading the older edition or the new one? I don't recommend the older version, the new one is a massive improvement.
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i was just reading the 2nd edition that i had already started, but if you think the third is that much better i guess i could start over as i just made it to chapter two.
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 (Edited)
You don't need to start over, chapter 1 is mostly the same, but starting in chapter 2 there are many differences. Its just a more enjoyable read.
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I just wanted to thank you for the incredible job you've done on this book. I wanted to post this on your site but the registration link I got seems unsafe, so I chickened out;) Anyway, I've read the book that was available on your site a few years ago and my interest in Star Wars that was starting to fade at that time got in fact new life by it, the book confirmed all the things I've thought and felt all these years but started to doubt on, so thank you for that and a late congratulation for getting it published. I just bought a copy of it:)

I also love your great articles on your site, very cool that you managed to get response from Marcia for your latest one.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Thanks, msycamore!

Also, what registration link are you referring to?

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Well, the activation link sent to me through email showed up as a high security risk to open on my computer. I don't know, maybe that's nothing to worry about?

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Oh, you mean on the discussion board. It's probably safe as it is from a reputable provider, but it's probably just as well, i was going to delete the forum since it hasn't had much interest.

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 (Edited)

Just finished reading the print edition. Wonderful job, though it looks like you could release a second edition (typos, awkward sentences, etc).

 

Perhaps a "Special Edition" where you can show us what you "always intended" to have written? ;)

 

It's definitely a page turner and I've only encountered a few people who refuse to read it because they think it's "paranoid" and "Lucas bashing" (which if they actually read it they'd realize it is far from that).

 

(Just so everyone knows, I realize how hard it is to find and correct EVERY error in a long work, even professional scholars miss stuff, which is why we have editors, but even they are not perfect! Every book has a few errors. However if you DID make a second edition, there is stuff you could fix, and I just notice this in passing after reading a wonderfully entertaining and informative book)

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Oh for sure. I'm not sure when you read it, but as its initial print was rushed there were some typesetting errors, which we corrected in a revision which started streeting in September of last year. There probably is still stuff that got through i am sure. I am planning on doing a full-on second edition in 2013 in any case.

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My copy arrived yesterday.  Looking forward to finally read it.

Since they're like poetry, what with the rhyming and all, I find that I only need to watch three out of the six films.

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Well done, sir.

 

 

 

I look forward to receiving my copy as well.  It will arrive in  5 - 8 business days.

 

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Since someone bumped this thread, I'll throw in my comments.

I read Secret History a few months ago and was enthralled.  It was so refreshing and exciting to read a book by someone who maintained objectivity and skepticism about this subject, while unfailingly demonstrating a deep abiding appreciation and passion for the subject matter.

A rare thing, in the 'EU,' as it were.

I was left with just one big question: what is the nature of the dialogue in the partially-restored Biggs-in-the-hangar scene, which refers to 'father Skywalker' in a way inconsistent with 'father Vader'?  Secret History mentions it in passing, without ever quoting the dialogue.  If it is really inconsistent, I think that may be the strongest single piece of evidence for the book's central thesis.

[Of course, I can't help inserting on tiny nit-pick.  There are some serious, systemic 'who'/'whom' issues, overlooked by the editor!  I would love to take a crack at editing the 2013 edition!  I think the organization could be cleared of some topical redundancies as well.  But don't get me wrong--I loved in and devoured it very quickly!]

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Yes, if/when I get a crack at a full-out second edition, large parts of it will be quite different, probably about 15% of the entire text will be rewritten, and there will be a lot of nips and tucks and quite a bit of additional facts that have come about in the last 4 years. There was talk about adding an afterword on all the post-prequel mythology, but that was with the assumption that the live-action series would already be in production by now, so there might not be enough material to warrant this now. But ultimately this is all up to the control of my publisher anyway.

The dialogue with Red Leader in ANH is not necessarily "inconsistent"--in fact, I wish they left it intact, since it could be plausible and makes the conversation flow a helluva lot better and make more sense--but it raises some questions.

The dialogue in the SE goes something like this:

Red Leader: Are you sure you can handle this?

Biggs: Sir, Luke Skywalker is the best bush pilot in the outer rims.

Red Leader: You'll do alright.

Kind of a weird about-face without any real motivation. The real version went like this:

Red Leader: Are you sure you can handle this?

Biggs: Sir, Luke Skywalker is the best bush pilot in the outer rims.

Red Leader: Skywalker? I knew your father when I was a boy, he was a great pilot. You'll do alright.

Of course, since we see Anakin in his youth, a close relationship of some kind between Red Leader and him would seem weird to casually throw out there unless you were going to reference it in the prequels. I am pretty sure RL says "when I was a boy" and given his age this would mean three things, both sort of implausible: 1) He knew him on Tatooine, when Anakin was a slave boy; 2) he knew him as an adolecant elsewhere in the galaxy, when he was training to be a Jedi Knight; 3) He fought with him in the Clone Wars. I guess these aren't so implausible, but it's just a really weird sort of personal connection to make. Probably the third option makes the most sense, after all RL is a military pilot and there would have been many soldiers and pilots Anakin interacted with at that time, but I think Lucas just didn't want to have to commit himself to any sort of character relationships in 1997, because if you have a reference like that that draws attention to itself, then you better show it in the prequels that take place at the time period referenced. Anyway, the dialogue would made sense in light of the prequels because people would just make their own projections, but it clearly is referring to a person who is the "Father Skywalker" Ben spoke of and not the Jedi student Darth Vader, who would not have been old enough to be a pilot or fighter when RL was a boy.