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"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression — Page 2
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Baronlando said:
Just to make this all more annoying, more and more I'm encountering this mistaken idea out there that old movies would NOT benefit from Hd/blu-ray, so why should they bother buying.
Just to make this all more annoying, more and more I'm encountering this mistaken idea out there that old movies would NOT benefit from Hd/blu-ray, so why should they bother buying.
Digital bits actually had a piece on that after Warner announced they were bringing a whole bunch of catalog titles to Blu-ray. They basically told people to NOT expect a pristine looking print and that film grain would almost certainly be visible because it was expected to be visible. This is for movies like Ben Hur and anything older.
Film buffs will expect that kind of thing. I think your average viewer won't though. Having a little flyer within the case explaining it is probably enough. Basically, they just need to educate people the same way they had to educate them about widescreen vs full screen "The black borders at the top and bottom of the picture are perfectly normal".
You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.
Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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zombie84 said:
Its just a quick cash-in on KOTCS coming to theaters. When Indy IV is on video there will be new boxsets made containing all four films. Thats likely when the Blu-Ray version will be out. I mean why bother doing a Blu-Ray trilogy when you will just need to do another 4-film boxset nine months later?
Its just a quick cash-in on KOTCS coming to theaters. When Indy IV is on video there will be new boxsets made containing all four films. Thats likely when the Blu-Ray version will be out. I mean why bother doing a Blu-Ray trilogy when you will just need to do another 4-film boxset nine months later?
Yea, I know, it's just that they're really cutting it close with this cash-in if the blu-ray set is only half a year away.
Tiptup said:
Getting George to care about film preservation would be to practically set our hopes in the realm of impossibility.
Getting George to care about film preservation would be to practically set our hopes in the realm of impossibility.
Not really. If I recall correctly, sometime in the past year it was announced that Lucas, Scorsese et al are overseeing some film preservation organization.
Tiptup said:
Preserving a version of Star Wars that best represents the original film would certainly be the right thing to do, but George has shown that he actually has antipathy towards such an effort. If he comes around it will be to earn more money or to gain acceptance from Star Wars fans, but I doubt that either are a huge concern for him right now.
Preserving a version of Star Wars that best represents the original film would certainly be the right thing to do, but George has shown that he actually has antipathy towards such an effort. If he comes around it will be to earn more money or to gain acceptance from Star Wars fans, but I doubt that either are a huge concern for him right now.
Well, this is just my opinion, but he is rapidly running out of ideas. He's already doing this Clone Wars show, which seems to be pandering almost exclusively to kids (if the fact that the trailer is being attached to Speed Racer is any indication), and Force Unleashed which I've heard cleverly nicknamed "god of Star Wars." It won't be long before he has no one else to pander to except for the longtime/hardcore fans.
Baronlando said:
Just to make this all more annoying, more and more I'm encountering this mistaken idea out there that old movies would NOT benefit from Hd/blu-ray, so why should they bother buying. Lucas has a golden opportunity here, more than any other single person (or film) on earth, to educate a LOT of people by restoring the 1977 movie and letting people see the difference between the 1993 transfer and today. Wouldn't this benefit the larger film preservation cause?
Just to make this all more annoying, more and more I'm encountering this mistaken idea out there that old movies would NOT benefit from Hd/blu-ray, so why should they bother buying. Lucas has a golden opportunity here, more than any other single person (or film) on earth, to educate a LOT of people by restoring the 1977 movie and letting people see the difference between the 1993 transfer and today. Wouldn't this benefit the larger film preservation cause?
To be fair, I think a lot of people out there are only planning on getting blu-ray players so that they can stop buying new releases on dvd and upgrade to the new format.
While we're on the subject, I'd like to revise something I said recently. I still contend that people won't notice a huge difference between blu-ray and standard dvd so long as everything is properly set. But it's happened at least three times that I've had to set yet another friend's dvd player to 16:9 so that everything won't look stretched out. How many people out there do you think are under the impression that dvd's are basically just digital laserdiscs, that every one looks like the GOUT? When I keep hearing stories about how even people with widescreen tv's don't care about everything getting stretched out and even get pissed off when someone tries to properly set it, I wonder.
Then again, the difference between anamorphic and non-anamorphic is rather insignificant when compared to the difference between sd and hd.
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Fang Zei said:
...When I keep hearing stories about how even people with widescreen tv's don't care about everything getting stretched out and even get pissed off when someone tries to properly set it, I wonder.
Then again, the difference between anamorphic and non-anamorphic is rather insignificant when compared to the difference between sd and hd.
...When I keep hearing stories about how even people with widescreen tv's don't care about everything getting stretched out and even get pissed off when someone tries to properly set it, I wonder.
Then again, the difference between anamorphic and non-anamorphic is rather insignificant when compared to the difference between sd and hd.
What upsets me is I just got a lot more HD channels on my cable, and several of them (TNT, HGTV, Food, A&E) pre-stretch out everything that's not 16:9. TNT even labels everything "HD", even when they are 15 year old shows. With networks saying things like this:
TNT.tv said:
Why does the screen look “stretched” when I watch TNT in HD?
In an effort to present a consistent broadcast, we have decided to maintain the same aspect ratio for all HD programming. An unfortunately consequence of this is that the standard TV ratio of 4:3 is presented as 16:9. This is what “stretches” the image. We apologize for any inconvenience this caused.
Why does the screen look “stretched” when I watch TNT in HD?
In an effort to present a consistent broadcast, we have decided to maintain the same aspect ratio for all HD programming. An unfortunately consequence of this is that the standard TV ratio of 4:3 is presented as 16:9. This is what “stretches” the image. We apologize for any inconvenience this caused.
how can we expect the average viewer to understand that shows shouldn't be watched like this?! I'm always explaining to the ladies at work that things filmed in widescreen should be wide and things in fullscreen should be full, but when the networks don't even understand that, how does my argument hold water? TNT can't do it, but Disney Channel and ABC Family have the right aspect ratios? I'm disappointed.
Kind of off-topic, but strangely relevant.
Star Wars Revisited Wordpress
Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress
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I mean, c'mon, the originals, or at the very least Star Wars '77, are considered classics. The prequels just aren't. I would think most people can tell the difference between special effects technology of the late 70's and early 80's and that of 1997.
In any event, May 25th is around the corner. I wonder if they'll use it as an opportunity to announce anything.
edited to add: After reading the article on the restorations of How the West Was Won, I'm giving Lucas less of an excuse if he doesn't finally get around to remastering the OOT for the next release.
Also, anyone else think we might see a trailer for the 3D versions attached to Avatar in December of '09? Given that 2010 is the date currently speculated by Lucas and Sansweet for the live action show, a Spring theatrical release of the movies followed by a Fall blu-ray to coincide with the show would make sense.
Is anything planned for 2009? I guess that was going to be the big year until the writer's strike threw everything off.
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generalfrevious said:
Nothing is ever going to be planned for the OOT in 2009, or 2010, or even by 2015! I can't believe how delusional some people are towards the false hope of getting the OOT on Blu-ray. Lucas will not even release a SE version of the OT until the format is on its way out. Plus, anything positive associated with the OOT is NEVER, EVER going to be released. I don't care if I have said this a hundred or a thousand times over; it is Lucas absolute goal to destroy the OOT from the public's minds and replace it with a SE/PT arc that has the PT as the centerpiece of the the saga, not the OT in any manner whatsoever. The OT, even in its latest revisionist form, is regarded as an afterthought to the PT. Since the shocking abuse the OOT two years ago, fans of the original trilogy are now living in delusion. Once I'll state for the thousandth time: the GOUT is the BEST we are ever going to get from Lucasfilm, and that is the absolute LAST time we will see the OOT for time immemorial.
Nothing is ever going to be planned for the OOT in 2009, or 2010, or even by 2015! I can't believe how delusional some people are towards the false hope of getting the OOT on Blu-ray. Lucas will not even release a SE version of the OT until the format is on its way out. Plus, anything positive associated with the OOT is NEVER, EVER going to be released. I don't care if I have said this a hundred or a thousand times over; it is Lucas absolute goal to destroy the OOT from the public's minds and replace it with a SE/PT arc that has the PT as the centerpiece of the the saga, not the OT in any manner whatsoever. The OT, even in its latest revisionist form, is regarded as an afterthought to the PT. Since the shocking abuse the OOT two years ago, fans of the original trilogy are now living in delusion. Once I'll state for the thousandth time: the GOUT is the BEST we are ever going to get from Lucasfilm, and that is the absolute LAST time we will see the OOT for time immemorial.
I would revise that last part with "in Lucas' lifetime."
Star Wars, the 1977 film, will never be allowed to dissappear because its too important, and even though the SE on High-Def will sedate a lot of people, over time demand for the original--not as a means to replace anything, but just for the sheer appreciation of it as a historically-relevant work of art--will be too hard to ignore for a corporation designed to sell product.
When the saga comes to Blu-Ray it will be SE-only, because that will be enough to get people to buy it. People like us are in the minority--true, most people would prefer to have the originals included, but its not going to stop them from buying it if they are excluded. The promise of seeing the films in HD on Blu-Ray--regardless of which version--is enough. And thats why it will probably be at least a few years after the initial SE release that any hope of the OOT in high-def will appear. It'll be just like it was on DVD.
Of course, LFL is totally and completely unpredictable when it comes to this stuff--ie the 2006 release that came out of nowhere--but I would agree that people are probably too optimistic about this. But the OOT will be available--one day. It just a shame that it might have to take something as extreme as Lucas himself dying before the wheels can be put in motion to get this happening.
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The thing is, whether or not the SE becomes entrenched as "the" version to LFL or the general public--and I'd argue that it kind of already is--there's always going to be a demand for the original-original version, not from Joe Meathead who will be watching Attack of the Clones in a full-screen version, but from the film-buff/preservationist/hardcore-fan group, which will make for a more and more important demographic as the films move out of the limelight. Its the same reason why Warners put out 4 versions of Blade Runner, why Anchor Bay put out 4 versions of Dawn of the Dead, and why Universal put out 3 versions of Close Encounters--do you think these are for the mass audience? Absolutely not, those people will just watch the single-disk directors cuts, or whatever is sold as "the" edition to get. But the collectors market is huge for classic films. Thats why there is a 4 disk Gone With the Wind, a 3 disk Wizard of Oz and a 3 disk Seven Samurai. I mean movies like Wizard of Oz have a wider, family appeal too, but the collectors/classic-film-buff appreciators arguably drive it more than the forty year old moms who say "oh, look Wizard of Oz is out on DVD".
As much as optimists get blindsided by hope, I think you also have to realise that we are on the tail end of the peak of Star Wars' popularity. 1999-2005 was the pinnacle, and thats when Lucas really pushed the whole "SE only" thing, and thats also when your average viewer was buying into the SE. More people saw ANH between those years than probably the entire twenty years before it, and thats sort of created an impression upon us that is exaggerated to what the future will bring. Because Star Wars was popular at that time--it was in theaters. And on the news, and magazines, and the toys and videogames were all over Toys R Us. Kids on the playground were into Star Wars because it was "in" again. Now, it will continue to be that way, but its status as a current trend--just like Pirates of the Carribean was from 2003-2007--will fade more and more. Kids won't play with the toys as much because theres not a new movie in theaters, and so on.
Obviously though, there IS a new movie in theaters, and a TV show as well, but these will not compare to even a fraction of the mainstream popularity you saw in the days of the prequels. And over time, the classic-film movie buffs, the preservationists and the collectors will emerge as a bigger and bigger demographic, and the kids/average-viewer group will fade more and more. You'll still have the SE touted as the version of the film to judge it by, the version touted by its creator as the only valid version, but the original 1977 will gather more and more status as it gets over. You know, Wizard of Oz still has a surprising amount of younger fans for a film thats almost seventy years old, its not just viewed by fans of classic films, but those casual viewers don't really care about it THAT much and really have no bearing on its video releases, its the fans that really drive the market, that nitpick that the colors be right, that all the scenes be intact, etc.
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Why?
-for whatever reason, I get the impression that the movies will all be available individually as well as in a huge 200 dollar set. The '04 set was one of the few times that the original movies have not been released individually, and what ended up happening after all? They released them individually, throwing in the '93 telecine so that even people who already had the '04 got them anyway. Then there's Lucas' "it'll all be released in the end ..... now we'll see how many people want the original versions" comment. And it sold undeniably well, didn't it?
-Those multi-disc sets you mentioned, while they are just single movies and not a huge franchise like Star Wars, have made the treatment Star Wars has received thusfar look pretty bad.
-.....
-actually, at this point I'm kinda rambling so I'll just stop
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Everything in business is about supply/demand, and when the SE in '04 were the #1 seller on DVD that year, why should Lucas think there is a huge demand for the OOT? It is just like the money the PT made in the theater, sure there are vocal people that didn't like it, but the movies made ALOT of money, so why should Lucas think that there aren't saga fans who enjoy the 6 movies?
The only way that Lucas will go back to the older fanbase is if the new fanbase dries up. If the toys stop selling, the videogames don't sell as well, the Clone War movie underperforms, the TV show gets low ratings, etc. Lucas will then realize that the real cash cow for the future is the movies, and he may realize the OOT fanbase will always be there, and the 'Saga' fans may be the wishy washy ones.
Only time will tell, cause SW is a train that has never derailed no matter what quality has been put out, and as long it is keeps making money with Lucas's new endeavors, the farther away Lucas will distance himself from the old fanbase and focus on the new.
Edit: To sorta sum up my post, if the '04 DVD's didn't sell well, can we all agree that the OOT would have been remastered for a nice boxset a year or two after that, cause Lucas would have gotten the memo that nobody wants the SE, they want the originals. But the OT is so powerful, the majority of people will 'put up' with the SE just to have them on DVD. I can't tell ya how many of my friends bough the 04 Boxset and said, "Yeah, the SE changes annoy me, but its SW!"
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CO said:
To sorta sum up my post, if the '04 DVD's didn't sell well, can we all agree that the OOT would have been remastered for a nice boxset a year or two after that, cause Lucas would have gotten the memo that nobody wants the SE, they want the originals. But the OT is so powerful, the majority of people will 'put up' with the SE just to have them on DVD. I can't tell ya how many of my friends bough the 04 Boxset and said, "Yeah, the SE changes annoy me, but its SW!"
To sorta sum up my post, if the '04 DVD's didn't sell well, can we all agree that the OOT would have been remastered for a nice boxset a year or two after that, cause Lucas would have gotten the memo that nobody wants the SE, they want the originals. But the OT is so powerful, the majority of people will 'put up' with the SE just to have them on DVD. I can't tell ya how many of my friends bough the 04 Boxset and said, "Yeah, the SE changes annoy me, but its SW!"
Well, yea, except that's the thing. Why wouldn't the '04 set have sold as well????? I mean, it was Star Wars on dvd finally. The new formats were still a couple years away and Lucas saw 2004 as the perfect time to do it, not a year later. With blu-ray it'll be a different situation. The ball is no longer in Lucas' court. Maybe I'm reading too much into the Close Encounters release from last year, but the fact that it happened when it did (only a year or so into the new format) and the way it did (all 3 versions) kinda gives me hope that each of the original movies will get one disc for the SE and one disc for the original version.
The 2004 set sold so fucking well because dvd is everyone's favorite format. What I was trying to say is that they did such a good job mastering it that for a lot of people out there it'll probably be the last time they ever buy the movies on home video. With blu-ray, as we've said many times, Lucas can charge us whatever he wants within a reasonable limit and, guess what, we'll still buy it as long as it has the remastered OOT included. That's what we just have to remember. At the end of the day, he knows we'll shell out a little extra money if the set has what we really want in it. If economics dictate to him that it still wouldn't be worth it, well, then so be it. But that's just not what I see happening.
Now, I realize this brings us back yet again to the argument of "well, he's not going to because he knows he can get away with only selling the SE." But that's what I'm talking about here. I can only see his including the OOT as helping any future release, not hurting it.
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Let's look at it from Lucas's perspective. He prefers the SE, he doesn't feel like putting out 2 different editions of the movies in every boxset, he wants everyone to look at the saga as 6 movies, as long as the SE sell well in every release, why would he change? If the '04 DVD's were the #1 selling boxset that year, why should he think the majority of SW fans would want the OOT? Lets just say the SE + PT movies are released on BluRay in 2009 and it is the #1 selling boxset that year, why should Lucas not think the majority of fans want that?
Now if the SE + PT BluRay set does not sell well, then there Lucas & Co. will realize that the market may not want the SE movies, or care to rebuy the PT movies too. THEN he goes back to old faithful: OOT.
People have to speak with their wallet, and if this CloneWar movie does great boxoffice numbers, and the TV show gets great ratings, Lucas will move on and like he has always done: Go with the market that is lining his pockets in the PRESENT DAY.
Just think of all those SW'77 fans who don't recognize Vader as Lukes dad, or Luke & Leia as siblings, have they ever gotten a single release of Star Wars on VHS in that context? No, Lucas catered to the OT fans all through the 80's and 90's with Star Wars Trilogy Boxsets.
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But that's my whole point. Look at what happened. Yes, everyone went out and bought the '04 set, but people made it clear to LFL in various ways that they didn't necessarily want to be required to buy all three movies if they only wanted one. Certain people, ahem, also made it clear that they wanted the original versions on dvd. So, LFL took care of both in one swoop. No, it wasn't remastered, but it was a step in the right direction.
I don't see them repeating this mistake on the next go-around. Now, you all laugh and say "Lucas won't see it as a mistake, he'll see it as another easy double-dip." But I still contend that while blu-ray is nice and all that, it won't be what dvd was. Watching the movies in 1080p will not be enough to get us to buy it again, neither will throwing in a bunch of documentaries. Going the Blade Runner route and putting separate versions on separate discs for the OT and going the seamless branching route for TPM is the only way he'll get a lot of people to buy it again. He'll release them individually this time since, from the sound of things, it's going to be one massive six-film set and people aren't going to want to pay 200 dollars for it.
Worst case scenario, even if he doesn't include the original versions in the individual releases, he'll throw them exclusively in the 200 dollar set to get us to buy it. Am I setting myself up for disappointment?
EDIT: ok, upon further thought that second to last paragraph makes me seem a bit naive. Of course it'll sell well if they advertise it enough.
Back in '06 and '07, I was a little confused by why people kept referring to the marketing department at lfl and how they should all be fired. They should be fired for exploiting people's ignorance of how dvd video works? I thought that was their job in regards to the GOUT.
I think what people were basically trying to say is that they should be fired for not giving us what we obviously want. But I think it's obvious enough by now. You can't watch the GOUT on an hdtv without both a) zooming it in and b) repositioning it so you can read the Greedo and Jabba subtitles. But that's not the market LFL was going for, and if you get the movies in fullscreen that's only for the '04 version, you're still getting the '93 version letterboxed.
My point is, blu-ray is a totally different ballpark.
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Fang Zei said:
From the sound of things, it's going to be one massive six-film set and people aren't going to want to pay 200 dollars for it.
From the sound of things, it's going to be one massive six-film set and people aren't going to want to pay 200 dollars for it.
This has me wondering if the Box set will include the OOT after all. If it does, we'll have to buy the whole thing just to get the theatrical version. That would be like a triple-dip for the OT fans. This will also save face for George, and he can claim that people are still gobbling up the SE. To get the Saga fans to buy it again, all he has to do is include in the Box set the updated version of TPM with the digitial Yoda (which has already been done). CHA CHING!
You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
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zombie84 said:
The only reason the OOT was on DVD in 2006 was because it was already done.
The only reason the OOT was on DVD in 2006 was because it was already done.
That's exactly my point. What if he's just waiting until the blu-ray to put any sort of work whatsoever into remastering the OOT? Isn't that what Cameron's doing with The Abyss?
Lucas, at least so far as he's concerned, put all of the necessary work into restoring the OT back in '03/'04. True, it wouldn't necessarily take that kind of restoration all over again in order to achieve an acceptable level of quality for a 1080p master of the O-OT, but what you said is exactly my point, zombie. It was already done, so he just got THX to do whatever it needed and then slapped it on a dvd.
Erikstormtrooper said:
This will also save face for George, and he can claim that people are still gobbling up the SE.
This will also save face for George, and he can claim that people are still gobbling up the SE.
Exactly
Isn't it in his best interest to have both?
Lucas isn't making money for other companies, he's making money for his own company.
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Fang Zei said:
That's exactly my point. What if he's just waiting until the blu-ray to put any sort of work whatsoever into remastering the OOT? Isn't that what Cameron's doing with The Abyss?
Lucas, at least so far as he's concerned, put all of the necessary work into restoring the OT back in '03/'04. True, it wouldn't necessarily take that kind of restoration all over again in order to achieve an acceptable level of quality for a 1080p master of the O-OT, but what you said is exactly my point, zombie. It was already done, so he just got THX to do whatever it needed and then slapped it on a dvd.
zombie84 said:
The only reason the OOT was on DVD in 2006 was because it was already done.
The only reason the OOT was on DVD in 2006 was because it was already done.
That's exactly my point. What if he's just waiting until the blu-ray to put any sort of work whatsoever into remastering the OOT? Isn't that what Cameron's doing with The Abyss?
Lucas, at least so far as he's concerned, put all of the necessary work into restoring the OT back in '03/'04. True, it wouldn't necessarily take that kind of restoration all over again in order to achieve an acceptable level of quality for a 1080p master of the O-OT, but what you said is exactly my point, zombie. It was already done, so he just got THX to do whatever it needed and then slapped it on a dvd.
You're assuming that he will do a remaster in the future though. The 2006 DVD does not require this to explain its existance. In fact, Lucas has been on record stating the exact opposite--that he has no plans to re-issue the OOT and that he does NOT want to spend money to remaster it. So I'm not sure why you keep assuming he's going to. The GOUT was thrown on as a bonus feature because it just happened to be lying around in the archives, if it wasn't for that it would have never been done.
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The first thing that was logically done to create the SE's in 97 was to digitize the theatrical cuts of the films. They had to get them INTO the computer before they could start making any changes. So logically, the OOT already exists in digital form. Whether that form is up to 1080p standards, I don't know, as the conversion would be over 10 years old at this point, but I'd imagine it's close to it considering the nature of the process and why it was being done in the first place.
I gotta go with the feeling that something is in storage for a proper OOT release, he's just waiting until he's milked the SE's as far as he can. I mean, if you go back to the various interviews over the years of the creation of the OT (77 to 83), how many times did he start contradicting himself about where the story was headed and that that direction was always his intention? Old habits die hard. He's trying to constantly come out looking like the conquering hero in spite of all the numbers showing how many soldiers he's lost.
And one more thing to consider - ANH was one of the first 25 films inducted into the National Archives as historical achievements in motion pictures...this was LONG before the SE versions, so logically a pre-SE version of the film still exists somewhere outside of Lucasland. That could always be dug out of the archives and given a new restoration and transfer.
My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.
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Of course, you could easily combine the 2004 scan with the original OOT scans from 1997 and edit together a virtual re-construction of the original negative--but thats one of those "work+money" things that Lucas does his best to avoid.
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zombie84 said:
No, only the scenes they changed--they only needed to scan the shots that had stuff added to them. The altered shots were then printed back onto film, and re-spliced into the negative, replacing the originals. So, I would estimate about 30% of the OOT is in the computer--if it was kept at all. The negative that was scanned for the 2004 edition was the 1997 SE with the CGI, as the negative of the OOT no longer existed.
No, only the scenes they changed--they only needed to scan the shots that had stuff added to them. The altered shots were then printed back onto film, and re-spliced into the negative, replacing the originals. So, I would estimate about 30% of the OOT is in the computer--if it was kept at all. The negative that was scanned for the 2004 edition was the 1997 SE with the CGI, as the negative of the OOT no longer existed.
Do you know that for sure? One of the "lines" that McCallum gave on the 97 SE's was that "the negative had deteriorated so badly that if we hadn't done this restoration now, the film may have been lost forever"...which admittedly sounds to me like an "Oh no, the sky is falling" kind of comment, but I still tend to think Lucas would have scanned the entire film as a precaution and just kept it on file for future use. He seems to be a great one for planning ahead and always having that fifth ace up his sleeve.
My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.