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China — Page 2

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Arnie.d said:

It is weird isn't it, these "dictator watches". And everyone accepts it apparently. Imagine what would happen if Germans start selling Hitler watches as souvenirs.


Well, it isn't that it is widespread. I have never actually seen anyone with a Mao watch, Sean's is the first I have ever heard of. And it is not like they are produced and sold in America as novelty items. They are pieces of Chinese propaganda, made and sold in China. I think it is more the American's sense of humor (yeah, somehow some of us find things like Mao watches humerously ironic) that gets them imported and sold on ebay. I highly doubt anyone who is buying or selling these things are really Mao fans.

Lordjedi seems to think that most Americans would not even know who the hell Mao Tse-tung is, and I must concede that he is probably right, a lot of people are pretty clueless. But a lot of us here obviously recognized him, and I know the people I hang out with would recongnize him. I think anyone who knows their history and saw people wearing these things around would likely take offense.

Also it should be noted that while the Guevera shirts are pretty popular, there are actually a good deal of people that take issue with it and are offended by them. I hear people complain about them from time to time, but for the most part, most people don't have a clue who he is, and alot of the ones who do have a clue don't really stop to make the collection. Guevera is known more for his bravery and his standing up and dying for what he believed in than he is known for being a marxist. Most people identify him with the world "freedom fighter" rather than "communist". He has become kind of a brand name and it is "hip" to wear him around. Not trying to justify it, this is shameful ignorance. I just wanted Arnie to know that American's in general are not okay with wearing clothes promoting dictators.

As far as for Germans selling Hitler watches, the Germans are pretty sensitive about that part of time in their history, no such thing would happen there. But with the whole "holocaust never happened" crap that seems to be getting increasingly popular, Hitler seems to becoming less and less of a bad guy. Might not belong before some idiots start touting him a hero who was wronged by the evil American Empire and their worldwide police force. In fact, this is probably already happening, I'd google it, but I am feeling in a fairly positive mood at the moment and I do not wish to spoil that just yet.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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You can rest easy knowing it hasn't gotten quite that bad yet ;)
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Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Errr...

http://www.eaglescorps.com/_wizardimages/hitwatch.jpg



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16307899&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=hitler-is-our-hero--name_page.html


Neo-Nazi Alliance



It is good to know it hasn't gotten quite that bad yet, but still to find all of the above with a couple of quick google searches still makes me uneasy. Still such extremist examples as the two links I posted seem more like relics of times past than the shape of the future. Pretty sad parents feel the need to instill such idiocy in their young.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Yes, Prussian Blue. I always wonder how people like this who display swastikas on their cars and where swastikas on themselves can live with the rest of society. I group the Phelps's with these kind of people.
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You need to get a sweet Mao scarf and hat to go with that thing. Mao is so gay, he's awesome.

HARMY RULES

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Yeah, that's the paradox about Mao; he is the most "revered" of the evil dictators. Even in travel books about China, Mao is given a heavy amount of sugar-coating, so I guess that has to do with government propaganda. Basically, China is a magnified version of the US and all the things wrong with us. I just hope the 2008 olympics don't become a massive failure because of Tibet controversy. You can't say anything bad about Mao according to the Chinese government.
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Yeah, that's the paradox about Mao; he is the most "revered" of the evil dictators. Even in travel books about China, Mao is given a heavy amount of sugar-coating, so I guess that has to do with government propaganda. Basically, China is a magnified version of the US and all the things wrong with us. I just hope the 2008 olympics don't become a massive failure because of Tibet controversy. You can't say anything bad about Mao according to the Chinese government.
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generalfrevious said:

Basically, China is a magnified version of the US and all the things wrong with us.


Uhhhh...

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

generalfrevious said:

Basically, China is a magnified version of the US and all the things wrong with us.


Uhhhh...


To translate: generalfrevious, care to elaborate on that statement?
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Thanks for interpreting for me pal, that was an incredibly accurate translation.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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:P

I figured it was either that or I go on the attack over that statement. Since I'm so tired of hearing (and reading) bullshit statements like that, I figured he deserves a chance to clarify his meaning before he's utterly destroyed by the rest of us.

[sarcasm]I can totally see what he's saying though. Ya know, with all those protesters that are being arrested everyday in the US. Oh wait...[/sarcasm]
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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I'm not trying to imply that American get arrested every day and we have a government-controlled media that spits out communist propaganda. The similarities between China and the US is that we are similar in our concern of the economy over the environment, our relatively high prison populations, degrees of government spying on citizens, and that we are rival superpowers, to some degree or another.
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generalfrevious said:

I'm not trying to imply that American get arrested every day and we have a government-controlled media that spits out communist propaganda. The similarities between China and the US is that we are similar in our concern of the economy over the environment, our relatively high prison populations, degrees of government spying on citizens, and that we are rival superpowers, to some degree or another.


Similar on the surface maybe, but the devil is in the details.

Concern of the economy over the environment. You have to be kidding. Unless you're referring to the recent "climate change" hype, then the US has been very good about protecting the environment at the cost of the economy in the past. Fuel economy has gone up, large areas of land have been set aside, water and air quality standards have been increased. Contrast this with China where you can't even breathe the air without a mask in some cities (Beijing I think). China has no environmental controls. The US has plenty. Try another argument.

Prison populations. Yes, the US puts people in jail when they break the law. China puts people in jail for speaking out against the government. Again, looks very similar on the surface, but the devil is in the details.

Spying on citizens. This is practically laughable. China blocks access to all but certain "approved" material (Internet, books, etc) and arrests people that subvert these controls. The US has no such thing in place. You want to protest in the US? Go ahead and do it. As long as you're doing it peacefully, you won't have any trouble. You want to put up a website saying how bad and evil the US government is? Go for it. You might get a lot of traffic, but you won't find yourself in prison. You can't do any of those things in China.

I think we get where you're coming from. The US is like China the same way Barack Obama is like John McCain. They have some similarities on the surface, but are completely different in the details.

Mao is revered in China due simply to government propaganda. Repeat a lie long enough and eventually people will believe the lie.
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"Spying on citizens. This is practically laughable."
Apparently you haven't thought about the NSA and the spying controversies a few years back. Besides that, you are absolutely right on all the points that you made. Im really not trying to say that the US is as bad or even worse than China, or that we lack the right to protest. The reason I mentioned "economy over environment" is that the US rejected the Kyoto treaty back in 2001 because it would cause an economic catastrophe. Anyways, you can reply and educate me on the mistakes I made in this post.
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"Spying on citizens. This is practically laughable."
Apparently you haven't thought about the NSA and the spying controversies a few years back. Besides that, you are absolutely right on all the points that you made. Im really not trying to say that the US is as bad or even worse than China, or that we lack the right to protest. The reason I mentioned "economy over environment" is that the US rejected the Kyoto treaty back in 2001 because it would cause an economic catastrophe. Anyways, you can reply and educate me on the mistakes I made in this post.
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generalfrevious said:

"Spying on citizens. This is practically laughable."
Apparently you haven't thought about the NSA and the spying controversies a few years back. Besides that, you are absolutely right on all the points that you made. Im really not trying to say that the US is as bad or even worse than China, or that we lack the right to protest. The reason I mentioned "economy over environment" is that the US rejected the Kyoto treaty back in 2001 because it would cause an economic catastrophe. Anyways, you can reply and educate me on the mistakes I made in this post.


Yes, we rejected the Kyoto treaty because it treated China like a 3rd world country. It required the US and the UK (maybe some other countries, can't remember exactly) to reduce our carbon footprint, but it made no such requirements of China or 3rd world countries. China is one of the worst offenders of pollution and that is exactly why we rejected it. You get an agreement that will force China to take some action as well and I'm sure we'll happily sign on. The leftists in this country (US) typically says "We need to lead the way on this and set an example". That's a good statement, but it doesn't carry much weight. There would be no reason for China to follow suit if they're not going to sign on to such a treaty.
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I knew the Kyoto treaty was rejected because China wasn't treated as an industrialized country; I learned that in Biology last semester. But still, the US also rejected the Kyoto treaty because they felt it was bad for business- which effectively nullified the treaty because US is one of the top petroleum consumers in the world.
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generalfrevious said:

I knew the Kyoto treaty was rejected because China wasn't treated as an industrialized country; I learned that in Biology last semester. But still, the US also rejected the Kyoto treaty because they felt it was bad for business- which effectively nullified the treaty because US is one of the top petroleum consumers in the world.


Along with CHINA and the UK. Yes, it nullified it because that's how treaties work. Either everyone agrees to them or they're null and void.

So here you are bitching about how the US and China have similar views on the economy over the environment (which is downright bullshit) and then you tell us you already knew why we rejected the Kyoto treaty. It was bad for business precisely because it did nothing to curb China's own petroleum consumption. Enough manufacturing jobs have already gone to China and their non-existent environmental laws. Institute even more, while leaving China out of the requirements, and more businesses will leave the US. Cheap labor and no environmental controls is a recipe for disaster.

You want the US to clean itself up, but you don't seem to have a problem with China spewing crap into the air.
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To be fair to America, look for some honest statistics of pollution in comparison to population size, and suddenly America looks incredibly clean. Americans in general may not be oppsessive compulsive about being "green" like some European countries are right now (though at this rate it honestly wont be long), but it is very conscious about the enviroment. Though I guess the fact that I ride around in an SUV automatically nullifies my opinion on the matter as well as reduces me to an un enviromentally concious neanderthal.

Once the government starts telling me what cars I can drive and what kind of lightbubls I can use, then you can say China is a magnified version of America all you want, because then it will be true.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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"You want the US to clean itself up, but you don't seem to have a problem with China spewing crap into the air."
Actually, I do have a problem that China spewing crap into the air. I'm not trying to promote China over the US or anything! I just say It's got to be a unanimous effort to cut down pollution when it concerns global warming. I said China was ONE of the reasons we rejected the Kyoto treaty. Sorry if I'm acting like I worship China and demonizing the US at the same time.
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Maybe China as a country will become (is?) the biggest pollutor. But aren't the figures something like: US 4% of the population, 25% of pollution? And why is China polluting like it does? Because the entire western world wants cheap products and we move production over there. Very convenient without all those shitty rules.
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C3PX said:

To be fair to America, look for some honest statistics of pollution in comparison to population size, and suddenly America looks incredibly clean. Americans in general may not be oppsessive compulsive about being "green" like some European countries are right now (though at this rate it honestly wont be long), but it is very conscious about the enviroment. Though I guess the fact that I ride around in an SUV automatically nullifies my opinion on the matter as well as reduces me to an un enviromentally concious neanderthal.


I would only nullify your opinion if you were telling people to "go green" and then driving around in an SUV. I once had a teacher that said "We should be reducing our fuel usage" and yet she drove around in an SUV. I didn't have the chance to say "You should start with yourself first". I had been promoting further oil drilling.

C3PX said:

Once the government starts telling me what cars I can drive and what kind of lightbubls I can use, then you can say China is a magnified version of America all you want, because then it will be true.


It hasn't quite happened with cars yet, but the government has already banned incandescent light bulbs. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59298. I know that's WorldNetDaily, but the fact is that the government has already mandated that we stop using those bulbs by 2014. Admittedly the amount of mercury in a CFL isn't as dangerous as it has been portrayed to be, but the cleanup necessary isn't as easy as an incandescent bulb (sweep up the glass). If a CFL breaks, you have to open your windows, leave the room for about 15 mins, and put the broken bulb into a bag. And then you're not even suppose to throw a CFL in the regular trash. All that in order to save some energy.

Arnie.d said:

Maybe China as a country will become (is?) the biggest pollutor. But aren't the figures something like: US 4% of the population, 25% of pollution? And why is China polluting like it does? Because the entire western world wants cheap products and we move production over there. Very convenient without all those shitty rules.


China pollutes like it does because they can. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with "the western world" and everything to do with not having environmental controls in place. They have a communist government that answers to no one but themselves. If you protest, you're jailed, it's that simple.

On that note, it appears that China is among the countries who have agreed, in principle, to a post-Kyoto protocol treaty. Check the Wikipedia article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Kyoto_Protocol_negotiations_on_greenhouse_gas_emissions.
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lordjedi said:

Arnie.d said:

Maybe China as a country will become (is?) the biggest pollutor. But aren't the figures something like: US 4% of the population, 25% of pollution? And why is China polluting like it does? Because the entire western world wants cheap products and we move production over there. Very convenient without all those shitty rules.


China pollutes like it does because they can. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with "the western world" and everything to do with not having environmental controls in place. They have a communist government that answers to no one but themselves. If you protest, you're jailed, it's that simple.

Ofcourse it has to do with us. We ship our electronic garbage to China because they just dump it somewhere (we would have to process it). All the products they make are for the most part for western countries not for their own use. We know they have shitty rules but we allow them to pollute as they do because of our own greed.
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Did you even bother to read that link that was posted about the amount of pollution going into the air in China? Their economy is moving at a break neck pace. The last thing they want to do right now is introduce environmental controls that will stall it.

They've seen what happens when a country goes from Communism to Democracy almost overnight (Russia anyone?). Do you think anyone wants to see that happen again? I'm sure environmental regulations will eventually take hold over there, it's just going to happen a lot slower since the government has total control over everything.

What would you suggest Arnie? That we suddenly stop buying things just because they say "Made in China"? Let me know how that works out for you.

I don't know about where you live, but there are places in the US that dispose of electronic waste properly. They don't all just ship it over to China to be dumped. And these places aren't hard to find either. I don't throw away very much electronics myself since I end up finding a use for everything. I think I even have an 8 year old computer around here somewhere. It may not be running, but it's not sitting in a landfill either.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.