Originally posted by: BMadden
I don't want to derail this thread any further, but I just have to call BS on this statement. How is it patronizing or rude to defend Adywan after he's said that he has done everything he originally envisioned with this edit and that he doesn't want to make any further changes?[/quote]
I don't want to derail it either, but I'll explain what I meant. It is because it asks us to assume that the vast majority of people giving feedback were making unreasonable demands or expressing themselves in a rude manner... that their contributions were negative, and somehow an affront to adywan himself. The impression was given that anyone expressing criticism (no matter how diplomatically worded) was attacking the project, bashing adywan himself and expressing ingratitude. Often such posts were filled with "I thought it was perfect/ didn't have a problem with that" types of comments which sounded like they were trying to distance themselves from the feedback (ie: I'm one of the good guys because I never made any criticisms). It was setup as if these people were pretending to be ady's friends and the rest of us were his enemies.
Maybe that sounds like taking it to an extreme, but it's true that not everyone has read and responded to every post in this thread. I think people are reacting TOO defensively on his behalf and in the process attacking a lot of other people with blanket statements about how criticism is immoral. I find that objectionable, and it sounds like they think adywan can't take care of himself or make his own decisions.
I especially hate the "you can't please everybody" types of responses, as if people were making unreasonable demands. Two shots were consistently mentioned as deserving further attention on here... the TIE sequence at the end, and the cut off forearm shot. So as far as I can see, anyone commenting on those two things had every right to, regardless of what adywan decide(s). There's no reason to bash people who made constructive feedback or to imply that anyone who did is bashing adywan himself or needs to be silenced.
[quote]
I'm sure there are little fixes here and there he could address, but he's stated time and time again that he's satisfied with the edit and officially done with it.[/quote]
Actually he didn't say that until many posts later, but some people were acting as if he'd said that first and then people had piled criticism on him unfairly. Adywan isn't George Lucas so let's not bring in that baggage here. He considered the criticisms to valid that he modified the "flipper" himself and put in the test images for the hand. He even said he'd changed it!
So people getting upset and hoping to somehow retroactively remove the criticism just comes off as strange. What do they want to happen.. for adywan to say "just kidding" and leave the flipper shot as it was on the Xvid? I don't understand the point of that. And what are you going to do anyway if people keep making suggestions? He can just ignore them once he's made up his mind. But again, not everyone can be bothered to read the entire nearly 200 post thread to see what questions aren't permitted to be asked anymore (and no offense, but is this adywan's forum... even if it's his thread?).
[quote]
The "rude" people are the ones who keep pestering him to make additional tweaks or changes.[/quote]
Can you name some of these people? I consider it far more rude to attack someone who is giving feedback, telling them that they need to stop pestering adywan. Surely adywan can tell them this himself, and if they won't listen, he can ignore them. Has he appointed these folks his spokesmen on the forum to say what can and can't be asked?
[quote]
My feeling is this: either enjoy it for what it is, the best SW fan edit ever and something that surpasses what Lucas gave us in 1997 and 2004, or move along and don't bother watching it.
Originally posted by: Kurgan
I sense the pride and loyalty these folks have for him that they feel protective, but some of it just comes off as patronizing, if not rude.
I sense the pride and loyalty these folks have for him that they feel protective, but some of it just comes off as patronizing, if not rude.
I don't want to derail this thread any further, but I just have to call BS on this statement. How is it patronizing or rude to defend Adywan after he's said that he has done everything he originally envisioned with this edit and that he doesn't want to make any further changes?[/quote]
I don't want to derail it either, but I'll explain what I meant. It is because it asks us to assume that the vast majority of people giving feedback were making unreasonable demands or expressing themselves in a rude manner... that their contributions were negative, and somehow an affront to adywan himself. The impression was given that anyone expressing criticism (no matter how diplomatically worded) was attacking the project, bashing adywan himself and expressing ingratitude. Often such posts were filled with "I thought it was perfect/ didn't have a problem with that" types of comments which sounded like they were trying to distance themselves from the feedback (ie: I'm one of the good guys because I never made any criticisms). It was setup as if these people were pretending to be ady's friends and the rest of us were his enemies.
Maybe that sounds like taking it to an extreme, but it's true that not everyone has read and responded to every post in this thread. I think people are reacting TOO defensively on his behalf and in the process attacking a lot of other people with blanket statements about how criticism is immoral. I find that objectionable, and it sounds like they think adywan can't take care of himself or make his own decisions.
I especially hate the "you can't please everybody" types of responses, as if people were making unreasonable demands. Two shots were consistently mentioned as deserving further attention on here... the TIE sequence at the end, and the cut off forearm shot. So as far as I can see, anyone commenting on those two things had every right to, regardless of what adywan decide(s). There's no reason to bash people who made constructive feedback or to imply that anyone who did is bashing adywan himself or needs to be silenced.
[quote]
I'm sure there are little fixes here and there he could address, but he's stated time and time again that he's satisfied with the edit and officially done with it.[/quote]
Actually he didn't say that until many posts later, but some people were acting as if he'd said that first and then people had piled criticism on him unfairly. Adywan isn't George Lucas so let's not bring in that baggage here. He considered the criticisms to valid that he modified the "flipper" himself and put in the test images for the hand. He even said he'd changed it!
So people getting upset and hoping to somehow retroactively remove the criticism just comes off as strange. What do they want to happen.. for adywan to say "just kidding" and leave the flipper shot as it was on the Xvid? I don't understand the point of that. And what are you going to do anyway if people keep making suggestions? He can just ignore them once he's made up his mind. But again, not everyone can be bothered to read the entire nearly 200 post thread to see what questions aren't permitted to be asked anymore (and no offense, but is this adywan's forum... even if it's his thread?).
[quote]
The "rude" people are the ones who keep pestering him to make additional tweaks or changes.[/quote]
Can you name some of these people? I consider it far more rude to attack someone who is giving feedback, telling them that they need to stop pestering adywan. Surely adywan can tell them this himself, and if they won't listen, he can ignore them. Has he appointed these folks his spokesmen on the forum to say what can and can't be asked?
[quote]
My feeling is this: either enjoy it for what it is, the best SW fan edit ever and something that surpasses what Lucas gave us in 1997 and 2004, or move along and don't bother watching it.
I strongly disagree. This fan edit is no different than any other in terms of the freedom of members of this forum to comment on it, either directly to the guy who created it or to no one in particular. Unless the board admins step in and shut us down that's how it's going to be. As I see it, adywan, from the very start 18 months ago put himself and his project "on the line" and open for criticism (constructive or otherwise). He didn't have to do so. He could have avoided the forum, or just ignored people's comments, or just said "no" repeatedly. He could have just released it and said "done."
I hate to bring up Lucas again, but this is distrurbingly like that train of thought some used to defend whatever GL was doing "well if you don't like it... shut up, or make your own/don't watch it." Unlike Lucas, adywan put this up as a forum thread over a year ago in order to get feedback, and he's directly solicited it multiple times. He doesn't have to read or respond to every suggestion here, but he chooses to do so for many of them, and that in turn encourages people to give it.
It's not that people DON'T LIKE IT (star wars revisited), it's that many of us have suggestions, and we have opinions of what works and doesn't, and since he even ASKED for feedback, we're giving it to him. If he doesn't like the feedback he's getting, he has some choices... he can change parts of it (he's free to choice whatever he likes amongst the comments or follow none of them at all), he can do nothing and defend it, or just ignore it. Most of us would like the fan edit to be better and think it would if a few (small) things were altered.
So it's not a case of tons of people giving contradictory information either, so it's not a "can't please everybody so don't bother" type of thing either. The discussion about whether to use a flipper or human hand was something that adywan was unsure about but tried both. The idea of putting up both as extras on the disc was even mentioned. So it's really a false argument to put forth that somehow adywan was being overwhelmed and trying to please everyone and failing, so some intervention was needed to protect him from criticism by shouting down/chastising the critics. This fan edit isn't an "all or nothing/love it or leave it" kinda deal. The 2004 editions can't be changed, because Fox/Lucasfilm were unwilling to listen to criticism (they just called whatever mistakes they made "deliberate, creative decisions"). So fan edits like these are the only outlet for people who don't have the time and tools to make their own fan edits (and who would expect a million different "fixed 2004 editions"? that doesn't make much sense).
One doesn't have to consider the false dichotomy of declaring it the best SW fan edit ever or refusing to watch it. One can watch it and make comments about it. If not, then the admins need to lock this thread and forbid discussion of anything but the distribution.
The bottom line is I don't like being told that my feedback doesn't count, or that I'm not allowed to give it (I can't force any fan editor to do my bidding, after all, they're just suggestions and feedback), especially by somebody who isn't an admin. I imagine I'm not the only one.
Hope that clears things up. I wasn't planning to waste a lot of thread space on that side of it. I'd rather just enjoy a fan edit, but as long as an editor is willing to listen to feedback, I'll give it in spades! If he doesn't want to listen and I'm still not happy, I'll tell anyone else I please as long as it's a free forum.