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Blu-ray Disc or HD-DVD? — Page 11

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and Glengarry Glen Ross

Good movie.

I was just contemplating if I should try to get Blade Runner in HD-DVD, because it might be cheaper now, and easier to rip. My wife and I are planning to buy a Hi-Def TV in the next few months, and I'd rather have a dedicated server for Hi-Def video than buy a player.

[EDIT] LOL, just checked Amazon. The HD-DVD version is a few bucks more. Go figure.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: Fang Zei
I read a thread recently (not on this website) where a guy was saying he can't stand watching standard dvd's now that he has an hdtv. Unless this guy is some kind of super, uber videophile, I'm really questioning what his hardware specs are. Standard dvd's look amazing on my friend's 60" sony lcd (being played on a bose dvd player with 5.1 in case you were wondering). Heck, even on my other friend's zenith lcd over coaxial they look frickin' amazing!

SD DVDs, compared to hi-def content, don't look that great to me either and I have a 50" 1080i HDTV. You don't have to be a super uber videophile to notice the difference. 1080i or p material just looks a lot better than 480i material. I personally don't have a huge problem watching my SD DVDs on a 50" TV though. I would rather watch hi-def discs and it looks like that day is finally getting closer.

Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
and Glengarry Glen Ross

Good movie.

I was just contemplating if I should try to get Blade Runner in HD-DVD, because it might be cheaper now, and easier to rip. My wife and I are planning to buy a Hi-Def TV in the next few months, and I'd rather have a dedicated server for Hi-Def video than buy a player.

[EDIT] LOL, just checked Amazon. The HD-DVD version is a few bucks more. Go figure.


Wouldn't you be better of with the Blu-ray version at this point? It shouldn't be any more difficult to rip as long as you have a Blu-ray drive for your computer.
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Yeah, I guess so. Need to look into a cheap Blu-ray ROM.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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NewEgg has ROM drives for $190. That's not exactly cheap for a ROM drive, but it's probably near the cheapest price you'll find for a Blu-ray drive at the moment.

With the format war being all but over, those drives should be down to $50 or so in a year.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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I told myself a while back that once Blu-ray drives were around $200, I'd look into getting one. The only problem with that right now is that the software players (PowerDVD) aren't very good yet. I think I'd rather buy a stand-alone player once they're in that $200 range and then buy a BD burner once their prices and media prices are reasonable. As a filmmaker, I'd love to be able to author Blu-ray discs for my own projects.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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NewEgg has ROM drives for $190. That's not exactly cheap for a ROM drive, but it's probably near the cheapest price you'll find for a Blu-ray drive at the moment.
But it's having problems with BD+ titles. Now the fun begins.

With the format war being all but over, those drives should be down to $50 or so in a year.

Why would you think a lack of competition would drive down prices?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Sure, there'll be a lack of competition between formats, but not a lack of competition between brands and models. Prices will go down because of the competition and introduction of cheap no-name players just like with DVD. Anyone remember when the Apex DVD player hit the market back in 2000? (You know, the one with the secret menu to disable macrovision and region coding.) That thing started at a then-ultra cheap price of about $169, and by Christmas, it was a door-buster selling for just $69. I bet a year from now we'll be seeing the same thing happen in the Blu-ray market.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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Originally posted by: Zion
Sure, there'll be a lack of competition between formats, but not a lack of competition between brands a models. Prices will go down because of the competition and introduction of cheap no-name players just like with DVD. Anyone remember when the Apex DVD player hit the market back in 2000? (You know, the one with the secret menu to disable macrovision and region coding.) That thing started at a then-ultra cheap price of about $169, and by Christmas, it was a door-buster selling for just $69. I bet a year from now we'll be seeing the same thing happen in the Blu-ray market.


Exactly. Thank you.

And don't forget what happened when DVD+R vs DVD-R burners were on the market. $300 for the drives. Then the combo +/- drives came out and the prices plummeted. A year after the $200 +/- drive came out, drives were less than $100 and now they can be had for $30.

Make no mistake, now that people have one format to buy, manufacturers can focus on that one format and getting the prices down. As prices drop, people will buy them more and with no other formats there won't be any uncertainty about which format to get.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Ok, even I think this is pathetic and I've been "supporting" HD-DVD from day one:

Toshiba slashing prices on HD-DVD players

It's time to give up guys. They fought a hard battle, but it's really time to throw in the towel and move on. I guess they can't be expected to go quietly though, at least not until Paramount and Universal switch formats.

Oh well, only another 6 months until WB is completely exclusive to Blu-ray.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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This is soooooo why I don't want to buy into Blu-ray:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7187179.stm
Owners of Blu-ray DVD players may find themselves frozen out of future developments in the technology because their machines are not upgradeable.

The Blu-ray camp has recently rolled out new features for players, which include picture in picture options.

But the majority of Blu-ray players sold to date do not have the necessary hardware to offer the features.

This is even better!


http://www.betanews.com/article/CES_Trend_1_If_the_format_war_is_over_what_has_Bluray_really_won/1200172289

But ideally, technology wars should be decided on the sole basis of a product's ability to meet the need of its users. And here, Blu-ray and HD DVD each have their advantages and disadvantages.

Blu-ray, for example, is now in the throes of moving from Profile 1.0 to the incompatible Profile 1.1 to Profile 2.0, a format which is http://www.betanews.com/article/Bluray_Early_adopters_knew_what_they_were_getting_into/1199841379.


And although Sony and its partners stand to pick up additional revenues from users who decide to upgrade to newer Blu-ray drives, there's every possibility that some of them might migrate over to the HD DVD side, too.

Moreover, Blu-ray products are reportedly more costly to make than those that follow the HD DVD format -- and in many cases today, the price of a Playstation doesn't even cover Sony's manufacturing costs.

So if Blu-ray is in fact going to win the war, it'd really better happen fast, to prevent the kind of price erosion that might interfere drastically with production and profitability.



http://www.betanews.com/article/Bluray_Early_adopters_knew_what_they_were_getting_into/1199841379
Blu-ray may have taken a commanding lead in the next-generation format war, but the group has a big problem looming: early supporters of the format will be left out in the cold when the Blu-ray Disc Association introduces BD Profile 2.0

Unlike HD DVD, which mandated features such as local storage, a second video and audio decoder for picture-in-picture, and a network connection from the very beginning, the companies behind Blu-ray took a different approach. Initial hardware players lacked these capabilities in order to keep costs down.

In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0. This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly.

When BetaNews asked developers of BD Live whether they were concerned about a backlash from early adopters who supported the format from the beginning, we were told: "They knew what they were getting into."

When BetaNews asked why these manufacturers rushed out players that were not fully capable and potentially buggy due to their BD-J implementation, the Blu-ray partner pointed blame across the room to HD DVD. "We should have waited another year to introduce Blu-ray to the public, but the format war changed the situation," he said. HD DVD was already coming and the BDA had no choice but to launch Blu-ray.



so basically if your purchase Drm-ray player sub 2.0 it might not work in the future when another ver arrives and the great quote "They knew what they were getting into" will be said again OMG........

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Actually, according to one of the articles I read, there will be no problem playing the movie on any of those players. The only problem that might come up is the additional features that are on the disc.

To me, this is no different than some of the problems that DVD encountered when it finally went mainstream. The APEX DVD player that someone else mentioned is one player that had trouble with seamless branching and would choke on the T2 DVDs that came out. A firmware upgrade fixed it, but it had to be sent in to the manufacturer and then they removed the back door that let you change the region.

I doubt that the people who bought Blu-ray players are suddenly going to migrate to HD-DVD. Why would they do that? They've started a library of Blu-ray movies and those would be useless on an HD-DVD player. It's more likely that they'll wait for the 2.0 spec to be finalized and then get a player that can be upgraded in the future. And if they don't want to wait, they can just get a PS3. It really isn't our problem that the price of the PS3 doesn't cover the manufacturing cost. That's Sony's problem and it likely won't be a problem once Blu-ray really takes off since they'll be taking in even more fees from licensing at that point.

To be perfectly honest, the early adopters did "know what they were getting into". They knew there was a chance that BD wouldn't take off. They knew they might end up with a dead format. At least this way, they can still play the movies, they just can't necessarily access all the features. That's really no different from early adopters of HDTVs that don't have HDMI ports or DVI ports without HDCP. Those people will never be able to watch a hi-def movie at 1080p until they upgrade their TVs.

Early adoption of any new technology always involves getting screwed by something.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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This is actually something I've been wondering about for a while.

Will it actually be absolutely impossible for the early adopters of non-ps3 profile 1.0 blu-ray players to update to the newer profiles? Even players without ethernet can still accept updates via cd, so what exactly would stop the older players from being 100% compatible with everything future discs will have to offer (besides internet features, of course)?
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Blu-ray is no more glitchy or incomplete than DVD was when it was introduced. Lousy non-anamorphic transfers, no component video outputs, lockups, layer changes that took several seconds...did you expect something different this time around?

Anyone who bought into the format this early and complains about not being able to play some lameass interactive "game" a year from now should stay away from technology in general. Buy another player if it means that much to you. Besides, which is worse: being able to watch Lord of the Rings on Blu-ray but not access the special features, or watching your HD-DVD copy of 300 for the 300th time because the format died and you can't buy any new movies?

Personally, I'm happy that the finished, but inferior, specification lost to the beta version of the superior format. Even if I hadn't purchased a PS3 and opted for a Panasonic BD30 instead, I would've replaced it in a year or two if necessary. That's the price you pay when you jump in early.

Welcome to cutting edge A/V
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Well, the extra feastures are important to me, so this whole "The movie still plays" attitude doesn't cut it. I'm not going to pay for a disc that I cannot access all the features, and I'm not going to upgrade my player for each new profile just because Sony decided to go lax on the hardware requirements just to get their players out the door. Not to mention profile 2.0 includes BD+, which means Sony gets to disable my player from playing future discs as well. Yippee!

the finished, but inferior, specification

Yeah, 20 whole Gbs. I guess I can live without the additional soundtracks in Taiwanese and Portugese.

I guess I wondering which situation is better: more space for features I can't access (if not entire discs I can't access), or less space with features that are accessible from day one. I guess I'll have to ponder that one...

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Again, if you don't like evolving specifications, don't buy today. Wait a year or buy a PS3, which has been upgraded to Profile 1.1 via firmware and will be upgraded to Profile 2.0 the same way.

Those 20 gigs give me uncompressed PCM 7.1 audio on shorter films and room for lossless Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA on longer films where PCM won't fit. Totally worth the extra space.

BD+ doesn't disable players. I've seen you post this before, and it's simply not correct. BD+ launches a virtual machine inside the playback device that ensures secure communication between the disc and the player. Should the security in the playback device become compromised, the device manufacturer shares its security key with disc authors, who enable a workaround on the disc that allows secure playback for future titles despite the hack. It does not disable playback in any way. Discs issued before and after the hack will continue to work as expected; BD+ merely provides a way for content authors to secure new releases after a player has been compromised. This won't help older releases, but it protects new releases.
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Should the security in the playback device become compromised, the device manufacturer shares its security key with disc authors, who enable a workaround on the disc that allows secure playback for future titles despite the hack. It does not disable playback in any way.
It can prevent playback of specific titles. If a player is hacked, then future titles will be written as to prevent playback until you plug your player to the internet and download an update. Initially, these updates will be free, but ultimately people will be charged for them. It is a system that punishes law-abiding consumers when a criminal hacks a particular player. Of course, since BD+ has been cracked by Slysoft, so the criminals couldn't care less. It's going to be really interesting when people find out that they are not allowed to play their new BD film in their non-hacked players. LOL!

And current BD-ROMs are having issues playing newer BD+ discs.

BD+ launches a virtual machine inside the playback device that ensures secure communication between the disc and the player.

Yeah, what kind of damage could something like that cause? *cough*root-kit*cough*

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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If you hack your player, then yes, playback will be prevented for specific titles. That's the whole point. BD+ allows the disc to identify a player that's been hacked and disable playback for that specific title on that specific player. BD+ is effective because it's security based on the disc, not on the player.

Simple solution? Don't hack your player. Enjoy the show.

Please stop repeating that nonsense about people being charged for updates. I've seen you post that repeatedly also. It is FUD. No basis in reality.

And root kits on my Blu-ray player? Somebody call the cops! It's an emergency!

I'm amazed at how people have turned a shiny disc that plays movies into a collection of conspiracies. No surprise that Bush has managed to wreck the country if this is the stuff we're all worrying about.
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I'll take the format with the most/best porn on it.
deleted, I think I went too far.
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If you hack your player, then yes, playback will be prevented for specific titles. That's the whole point. BD+ allows the disc to identify a player that's been hacked and disable playback for that specific title on that specific player.
No, you misunderstand. If the keys to a particular model of player is hacked, then all models of that player will be exempt from future playback until those owners download new keys. Future BD+ titles will have keys that won't play on that model, whether it be owned by the hacker, or someone else who has the same model.

Please stop repeating that nonsense about people being charged for updates. I've seen you post that repeatedly also. It is FUD. No basis in reality.


Blu-ray Silver Surfer has playback problems on some players

Blu-ray Silver Surfer has playback problems on some players People taking home copies of the new Blu-ray release from Fox, The Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, may be disappointed, depending on what model of player they have. That's because of reports that are coming in, particularly on AVSForum, that neither Samsung's BD-P1200 and LG's BH100 (dual format) player can play the disc.

It's not surprising that this would happen as the BD+ protection used on the disc is very new. Players that have problems give the viewer a message suggesting a Firmware update. This isn't exactly a surprising development with adoption of the additional DRM measures. However, it may highlight an inherent weakness in the strategy of protection that can be upgraded, therefore requiring mass player updates.

Right now few households have either a Blu-ray or HD DVD player, even if they do have an HDTV. That isolates the problem to a small number of mostly tech savvy A/V enthusiasts. These are the kind of people who typically don't have a problem with a firmware update. The same can't be said for much of the general public. What will their reactions be if they buy into Blu-ray and have similar problems in the future?

Although one or two firmware problems like this are to be expected this early in the development cycle for new technology like Blu-ray, it does raise another legitimate question about how far you can go with DRM before you lose sales. Recent information that BDMV (Blu-ray's commercial movie format) discs soon won't play without AACS encryption. Neither the discs or the software required to encrypt the content have been available to consumers so far, but Authoring for non-encrypted discs has. This will apparently force people who have already created their own BD movies from Camcorder footage or MPEG transport streams (from digital TV) may have to spend a lot of money copying discs to new media, or simply lose the abillity to play it.

DRM's impact goes much deeper than deterring people from copying discs. The more visible it is to consumers, such as requiring firmware updates or making them pay to encrypt content they produce, may anger consumers. Whether it will have an effect on Blu-ray's success has yet to be seen.


Tell me - how many firmware updates is Sony going to want to "give away" in the future?

Sorry, but it is not unsubstantiated FUD on my part. It is a lack of knowledge on yours.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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If I were drinking milk it would've shot out my nose. The Digital Bits lines are particularly hysterical.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: Jay


Please stop repeating that nonsense about people being charged for updates. I've seen you post that repeatedly also. It is FUD. No basis in reality.




Finally someone else saying the same thing I have been saying,I have been telling people this at FE to,this is just plain stupid,I totally agree with you Jay.
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i have to lol at your cowboys pride banner, dark jedi.

way to go romo, and nice faked tears t.o.

off topic but could not resist

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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As long as there exists one programmer with the brains to write a driver that will output to AVI instead of the screen, DRM will be a non-issue. Copy protection sucks. It's annoying. It's Draconian. It's a colossal waste of time and energy. But it's always ... ALWAYS ... going to be defeated in the end.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
No, you misunderstand. If the keys to a particular model of player is hacked, then all models of that player will be exempt from future playback until those owners download new keys. Future BD+ titles will have keys that won't play on that model, whether it be owned by the hacker, or someone else who has the same model.

This is simply wrong. Please read what the BD+ spec supports. It is security on a disc-by-disc basis. There will be no revocation of security keys across a whole line of players. The security is on both the disc and the player.

Please read this. Note the following key point (emphasis mine):

Basic countermeasures, which can check a player that is known to have had its hardware hacked—for example, a patch to the drive's firmware—and detect and respond to this hack. This allows new discs to disable playback on standalone players that have been hacked, without having to revoke the license keys of the entire model or line of players.

While there are capabilities for "advanced countermeasures" subject to studio abuse, the market has a way of dealing with needlessly restrictive media. Ask DiVX.

Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Blu-ray Silver Surfer has playback problems on some players


Tell me - how many firmware updates is Sony going to want to "give away" in the future?

Sorry, but it is not unsubstantiated FUD on my part. It is a lack of knowledge on yours.


You just proved absolutely nothing about paid firmware updates with that long quote of yours. I've yet to read any mass media article about HD media that wasn't mostly wrong.

They don't get it, and neither do you.
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