That scene felt too choreographed to me. It lacked the kinetic feel of the duels in ESB and ROTJ. I agree that the SW duel wasn't much, but considering Ben's age and the fact that he had decided beforehand to let Vader "win", it's understandable why it ended up being what it was.
The ESB duel to me was the best. Maybe it wasn't quite as fancy as the TPM duel, but it felt more like a real duel. You could feel Luke's utter exhaustion by the end. The duel in TPM felt more to me like a dance.
I wasn't judging the saber battle in an overall sense - I was judging them by an artistic standard. I do agree with you that the TPM battle lacks realism at times, particularly when Obi-Wan and Darth Maul spin away from each other and strike a pose. Also, the end of that duel was extremely stupid. Darth Maul, who can evidently react with incredible quickness to anything, basically stands there while Obi-Wan vaults over him, calls a saber into has hand, and cuts him in half.
This is your second jab at my circular reasoning post. I'm wondering if you even know what that means.
In all honesty I don't think you can say the PT is treated unfairly by any means at all, it is a series of crappy movies that are successful simply because they bear the same name as a series of really good movies that were made a long time ago. They really didn't deserve the success they got. If it hadn't been for the name Star Wars, it is not likely it would have done too well. You can say they may have done well on their own, and they may have, but you simply can't ignore the 20 years worth of Star Wars fans who rushed to theaters with their kids to see each one of these that would not have done so had it been something completely different.
The ESB duel to me was the best. Maybe it wasn't quite as fancy as the TPM duel, but it felt more like a real duel. You could feel Luke's utter exhaustion by the end. The duel in TPM felt more to me like a dance.
I wasn't judging the saber battle in an overall sense - I was judging them by an artistic standard. I do agree with you that the TPM battle lacks realism at times, particularly when Obi-Wan and Darth Maul spin away from each other and strike a pose. Also, the end of that duel was extremely stupid. Darth Maul, who can evidently react with incredible quickness to anything, basically stands there while Obi-Wan vaults over him, calls a saber into has hand, and cuts him in half.
Originally posted by: C3PX
"It deserves that flak because it is a bad, bad, terrible movie" = plenty of answers? Forgive me if I'm still not convinced.
I thought you seriously wanted to have someone point out to you why it gets so much flak, not to get into an endless debate on why it is treated unfairly, and who is and isn't giving suspiciously circular reasoning.
Originally posted by: vote_for_palpatine
Your previous post was vaguely worded to the point where I had to guess at your meaning. You explained yourself much better this time.
Anyway, you asked why does it deserve so much flak, I gave you plenty of answers by now.
Look - my argument isn't based upon how I would have written the prequels. As Episode II was written, Anakin clashing with Obi-Wan was a relevant plot point and I think Episode II fulfilled its basic objectives adequately.
Man, if the criteria for a movie being decent were that it fullfills it objectives that it set out to make, then we would have a lot less crappy movies. I am sure the makers of Mano the Hands of Fate felt that their film went out to achieve they wanted it to from a story telling standpoint. Anakin's clashing with Obi-Wan could have been done a million other ways, but the way that it was done is a joke and painful to watch. Hence, it deserve flak.
But what is TPM trying to accomplish? It tries to establish Anakin as the chosen one. And sure, he runs a good podrace, but in the end he's just randomly pressing buttons in space and not only doesn't get blown to bits, he destroys the Death Star - er, Droid Control Ship.
Zing!
What I meant by that had nothign to do with sheer artistry, what I mean by that was that it was the only lightsaber battle in the PT, that was fun to watch like the OT. It was the only lightsaber battle in the PT, that had you on the edge of your seat, like the lightsaber battles of the OT. But this too is probably incorrect, or circular, or spherical or something.
Man, if the criteria for a movie being decent were that it fullfills it objectives that it set out to make, then we would have a lot less crappy movies. I am sure the makers of Mano the Hands of Fate felt that their film went out to achieve they wanted it to from a story telling standpoint. Anakin's clashing with Obi-Wan could have been done a million other ways, but the way that it was done is a joke and painful to watch. Hence, it deserve flak.
But what is TPM trying to accomplish? It tries to establish Anakin as the chosen one. And sure, he runs a good podrace, but in the end he's just randomly pressing buttons in space and not only doesn't get blown to bits, he destroys the Death Star - er, Droid Control Ship.
Not true. The opening dialogue between he and Obi-Wan establishes that Anakin has saved Obi-Wan at least once before. Later, Anakin foils the second assassination attempt, rescues Obi-Wan in the skies or Coruscant, then dives out of his speeder onto the assassin's.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize it was incorrect to connect it to the OT. I should have asked you first if it was correct or not.
So just because he saves Obi-Wan's life, doesn't mean he wasn't rebellious, whiney teenager.
Reading is fundamental, my son. You said all he did was whine and rebel, that he wasn't shown as a hero. In the first 30 minutes of the movie, Anakin pulls off three heroic acts. I didn't deny that Anakin was whiny and rebellious - you said he was nothing but that. Let the record reflect that you were wrong.
That's good and fair. However, if AOTC and especially ROTS had been better movies, I don't think people would object to the CG as much.
Well, as far as sheer artistry goes, there is no surpassing the Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan battle. That was a beautifully coreographed scene. However, it is incorrect to connect this saber battle to any in the OT. The saber battles in the OT weren't nearly that artistic, especially the very first one.
Reading is fundamental, my son. You said all he did was whine and rebel, that he wasn't shown as a hero. In the first 30 minutes of the movie, Anakin pulls off three heroic acts. I didn't deny that Anakin was whiny and rebellious - you said he was nothing but that. Let the record reflect that you were wrong.
I have known teens who have claimed to hate their parents and wish they were dead, only for their parents to end up actually dying some accident, and guess what? The kid usually has a pretty hard time coping with this. So you are saying that if Anakin were truely a rebellious teenager, he would simply not have bothered to save Obi-Wan's life?
That's not what I'm saying at all. I don't know where you're getting this from. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me it seems that you think that Anakin is a flat character in AOTC. He's not. He obviously respects Obi-Wan, yet bristles under his tutelage at the same time. If your point is that Hayden Christiansen didn't properly convey that dichotomy, I have no problem with that. HC was terrible in AOTC, and not much better in ROTS.
Those were sentence fragments used deliberately to make a point. I know how to write, thanks. And BTW, you meant to say " your English", not " you English".
No, that does not make a movie, never said it did. But it undeniably sets the feel of a movie. I feel like I could visit Theed. I feel like I could walk through the jungles of Naboo, just like it has always felt that I could walk though the forests of Endor, or the snows of Hoth. There are really no locations in either of the other two films that feel tangible. Oddball and the clone pilots were so painfully CG, as were many of the other CG characters. This is why I said that TPM felt more real and organic than the others. Never said it was a good movie because it used puppets and real locations. I simply said those contributed to it feeling more real than the others. If you ask me what Kashyyk looks like, I would say blurry and green. Because that is all I ever got out. Feels like a scene out of a 100% CG film, not even any of the characters are real in those scenes. If it had been real, the whole wookie battle probably would have been pretty cool. Imagine the ewok battle, but with wookies.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I don't know where you're getting this from. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me it seems that you think that Anakin is a flat character in AOTC. He's not. He obviously respects Obi-Wan, yet bristles under his tutelage at the same time. If your point is that Hayden Christiansen didn't properly convey that dichotomy, I have no problem with that. HC was terrible in AOTC, and not much better in ROTS.
This sounds suspiciously like circular reasoning.
Okay, you English is really falling apart on his in the last sentence, just thought I'd mention it.
Okay... good comeback... uh... never mind.
Wow. QED, I guess.
Well, to pose a question you posed earlier, So what? Sets and puppets do not a movie make - just as CGI does not a movie make.
Wow. QED, I guess.
Well, to pose a question you posed earlier, So what? Sets and puppets do not a movie make - just as CGI does not a movie make.
Okay, you English is really falling apart on his in the last sentence, just thought I'd mention it.
Those were sentence fragments used deliberately to make a point. I know how to write, thanks. And BTW, you meant to say " your English", not " you English".
No, that does not make a movie, never said it did. But it undeniably sets the feel of a movie. I feel like I could visit Theed. I feel like I could walk through the jungles of Naboo, just like it has always felt that I could walk though the forests of Endor, or the snows of Hoth. There are really no locations in either of the other two films that feel tangible. Oddball and the clone pilots were so painfully CG, as were many of the other CG characters. This is why I said that TPM felt more real and organic than the others. Never said it was a good movie because it used puppets and real locations. I simply said those contributed to it feeling more real than the others. If you ask me what Kashyyk looks like, I would say blurry and green. Because that is all I ever got out. Feels like a scene out of a 100% CG film, not even any of the characters are real in those scenes. If it had been real, the whole wookie battle probably would have been pretty cool. Imagine the ewok battle, but with wookies.
That's good and fair. However, if AOTC and especially ROTS had been better movies, I don't think people would object to the CG as much.
Well, as far as sheer artistry goes, there is no surpassing the Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan battle. That was a beautifully coreographed scene. However, it is incorrect to connect this saber battle to any in the OT. The saber battles in the OT weren't nearly that artistic, especially the very first one.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize it was incorrect to connect it to the OT. I should have asked you first if it was correct or not.
Zing!
What I meant by that had nothign to do with sheer artistry, what I mean by that was that it was the only lightsaber battle in the PT, that was fun to watch like the OT. It was the only lightsaber battle in the PT, that had you on the edge of your seat, like the lightsaber battles of the OT. But this too is probably incorrect, or circular, or spherical or something.
Your previous post was vaguely worded to the point where I had to guess at your meaning. You explained yourself much better this time.
Anyway, you asked why does it deserve so much flak, I gave you plenty of answers by now.
"It deserves that flak because it is a bad, bad, terrible movie" = plenty of answers? Forgive me if I'm still not convinced.
I thought you seriously wanted to have someone point out to you why it gets so much flak, not to get into an endless debate on why it is treated unfairly, and who is and isn't giving suspiciously circular reasoning.
This is your second jab at my circular reasoning post. I'm wondering if you even know what that means.
In all honesty I don't think you can say the PT is treated unfairly by any means at all, it is a series of crappy movies that are successful simply because they bear the same name as a series of really good movies that were made a long time ago. They really didn't deserve the success they got. If it hadn't been for the name Star Wars, it is not likely it would have done too well. You can say they may have done well on their own, and they may have, but you simply can't ignore the 20 years worth of Star Wars fans who rushed to theaters with their kids to see each one of these that would not have done so had it been something completely different.
This answers an argument I didn't make.