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Would you give up ESB in exchange for...? — Page 2

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Originally posted by: JediRandy
I can't wait the hear the "yes" folks explain this one.


You've gotta understand just HOW MUCH we hate the SEs .

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Originally posted by: Mike O
Originally posted by: JediRandy
I can't wait the hear the "yes" folks explain this one.


You've gotta understand just HOW MUCH we hate the SEs .


Hey that's fine but is your hate of the SE more than your love of ESB? I'll give you ROTJ but ESB? Hoth, Dagobah, the asteroid field, the duel, Millenium Falcon, Bespin... you'd erase all that for Greedo shooting first and CGI Jabba...

5 minutes of agony or 2 hours of awesome... and that's 2 hours of no GL directing/writing SW awesome.
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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I voted no.

I love the original SW with a passion (I was born in '72), but it's just too hard for me to give up ESB. Some of the best acting in the entire saga is in ESB, and it's a mature movie that respects its audience. ESB finds a way to give us something new and entertaining in the SW universe, and it doesn't feel like a re-hash.

Now if the question had asked if I would give up ROTJ and everything that came after it, I would have voted with a big, fat YES.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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Why the hate on ROTJ? Sure it could have been a stronger film, but it's the one I started with - so I really like it.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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My lack of love for ROTJ:

It's a Re-hash:
- Tatooine again
- Another Death Star
- Destroying the Death Star by blowing up its reactor core

Sheer laziness:
- Leia is the "other" Skywalker ("I'm tired of making these movies. Let's tie it up quick!")
- ALL imperial officers have the same rank (pathetic if you ask me)
- Luke's lightsaber is just Obi-Wan's stunt saber from ANH

Just sad:
- Boba Fett is given a rediculous end
- Ewoks are too cute

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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Originally posted by: bkev
Why the hate on ROTJ? Sure it could have been a stronger film, but it's the one I started with - so I really like it.


I don't think there is genuine hate toward ROTJ from OOT fans, but I think after seeing the PT, you can see what went wrong with ROTJ, and understand where Lucas started to change.

I don't hate ROTJ, in fact for a SW movie, I really love it, but it is far inferior to SW & ESB, so when it was just a trilogy, you kinda thought it was a hiccup by Lucas & the boys. Then you watch the PT, and see the kiddy tone, the bad attempts at humor, the stilted dialogue, and the way the movies move like molasses at certain points, and you can see all little parts of them in ROTJ. So it went from a movie that everyone thought was a hiccup, to a movie series that was trending downward in terms of quality.

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Jedi isn't as bad as the PT (though you can see much of what was about to go wrong starting there), but I don't think that I've ever seen a film squander so much potential.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Originally posted by: JediRandy
Originally posted by: C3PX
Quote

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Originally posted by: JediRandy
I can't wait the hear the "yes" folks explain this one.
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I dunno, just in the way that you wrote it it seems more like a "haha you got pwnd!!!!1" than a true expression of interest in our explainations as to why we believe what we do. As for you not being able to wait, all four of us who voted yes gave the exact same reason why in here as we did in the other. So really rather than going through the waiting that you couldn't, you could have just reread our posts in the other thread. This very reason is why I infered that you were wanting us to explain why we are so vastly out numbered on the poll, rather than explain why we said yes, which you already knew.

If I was mistaken then I am sorry.



I could care less if you've gotten pwnd! I am interested in the reasoning as to why erasing one of the greatest flicks of all time would be worth it if it meant no more CGI Jabba the Hutt



Well, we have already given you our reasoning behind it in the other thread. Just doesn't make sense for you to ask for it again. If you haven't understood it by now, you wont ever. And if you have read our reasoning then you should know by now that it has very little to do with "no more CGI Jabba the Hutt", in fact, I addressed that one directly in one of my posts.

Just to clarify to everyone else, this topic did not come about through a deep seated hate of the SE and PT. I am fine with their existence, I can ignore them and not watch them. I grew up with the trilogy, and I loved all of them, including ROTJ as a kid. Both Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back are often placed as examples of great sci-fi films. Now it is harder for them to be taken seriously because they no longer stand on their own without all the extra baggage. As Zombie has said, the name Star Wars has gone from greatness to just another cheap sci fi franchise like Star Trek. It is not that I would trade ESB for everything else to just go away because my hate of those others out weights my love of ESB. It is not even about trading anything for anything. It was just a silly hypothetical idea of "what if", and would it have been better. Let's try posing it this way,

Multiple Choice. Please select the most appropriate answer from the selection below

1.

A). Star Wars is a cheap science fiction franchise indistinguishable by many from Star Trek. While these films are fun to watch, they are nothing more than mindless entertainment.

B). Star Wars is a classic sci-fi film from 1977, and an example of excellent fantasy film making, in the same ranks as The Wizard of Oz.


2.

A). George Lucas, a phenomenal director with a vast collection of groundbreaking films, fitting in the ranks with Alfred Hitchcock and Stanley Kubrick.

B). George Lucas is a director who once displayed potential for greatness in his earlier films before he got involved in the Star Wars franchise and proceeded to do nothing else. His films are known for childish poop jokes, incoherent plot lines, bad dialog, bad actors, and bad writing and an extreme lack of imagination in his later work. He is also known as an amazing business man. Due to the success of his earlier work, he was able to independently finance his later work, giving him complete creative control, which is the only reason his later one writer scripts managed to avoid the waste basket.


These were the lines I was thinking along. If I could choose which one of each of these was true, I couldn't help myself but to choose 1. A, and 2. B.

It is fun speculation, but none of this really matters.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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... but I don't think that I've ever seen a film squander so much potential.


The Matrix sequels.

"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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Originally posted by: JediRandy
... but I don't think that I've ever seen a film squander so much potential.


The Matrix sequels.


OK, you pose a valid point .

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Yeah, I would have to agree with Randy on that one too.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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in my opinion, the Undestroyed trilogy, especially RotJ, is absolutely essential for the complete and satisfying experiance.

If it was just Star Wars, the deeper, spiritual meaning of the films (Family, redemption, forgiveness, love) would be non-existant and Star Wars would be just another brainless sci-fi shoot em up.

had push come to shove and the Undestroyed versions had never been released, at least we'd still have Luke's reunion with Han and Leia at the end of RotJ left reletively intact (admittingly, the most heartwarming part of the ending) although having to close your eyes afterwards still would detract from it.

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Originally posted by: bkev
Why the hate on ROTJ?
I don't know, I don't get it either. I love ROTJ. There are so many great moments in the film, and ESB would be pretty unsatisfying without it.

Originally posted by: Arnie.d


If the question is "would you give up the prequels in exchange for..." my answer would be YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would give up the prequels in exchange for (fill in the blank) .

I would give up the prequels in exchange for a pack of gum .

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Originally posted by: Blackjack


If it was just Star Wars, the deeper, spiritual meaning of the films (Family, redemption, forgiveness, love) would be non-existant and Star Wars would be just another brainless sci-fi shoot em up.


I have to respectfully disagree with you if there was just SW and no sequels. Now I agree that the OT overall does give the films a slightly different meaning after ROTJ, but to call SW a brainless sci-fi shoot em up movie? The movie from start to beginning is about Luke Skywalkers journey who gets sucked into this conflict with the rebels vs the empire.

The overall trilogy after 1983 may have been about family, redemption, etc, but the Original SW was about hope, and about how good truimphs evil, and there are moments in the movie that would still resonate today and the typical brainless summer blockbuster wouldn't hold a candle to it. Moments like Luke looking at the binary sunset, moments like when Luke sees his foster parents bones and realizes where his destiny lies. Other moments like Luke/Leia flying through the chasm in the deathstar, and finally the destruction of the deathstar is one of the most satisfying moments I have ever experienced in the theater. This isn't a knock against the OOT, cause what you said in your post is correct, but don't belittle The Original SW, cause the movie stood on its own as the most popular movie ever in 1977.

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this question is rediculous it would be like saying you would give up godfather II and just have the godfather to get rid of the awful part III.

for the most part movie sequels are not better than the originals except for the exception of empire strikes back and godfather II, and star trek II.

back to the future II and III were inferior to part one, both rocky and rambo went down hill after film number one so also did die hard.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Originally posted by: skyjedi2005
this question is rediculous it would be like saying you would give up godfather II and just have the godfather to get rid of the awful part III.

for the most part movie sequels are not better than the originals except for the exception of empire strikes back and godfather II, and star trek II.

back to the future II and III were inferior to part one, both rocky and rambo went down hill after film number one so also did die hard.

Thats not at all an apt comparison though. Godfather had a so-so third entry like Star Wars, but there isn't four more sequels that are many times worse than part III, there isn't 20 million paperback spin-off novels and there isn't thirty different comic series, and although there is now a game its really the only spin-off material.

For me, the situation is similar to Rocky. Rocky was a terrific, terrific film, a great classic American movi; I mean the thing won an Oscar for best picture! The sequels--well, Rocky II and III are mostly watchable, and Rocky Balboa is actually quite good. But still--Rocky became known as all that is bad in sequelising, the neverending "Part X", and although the first two sequels weren't terrible hey werent particularly good either, and parts IV and V were just pieces of shit that really brought down the reputation of "Rocky" because now it was just seen as this terrible franchise that kept making successively worse entries in a shameful attempt at capitalisation. Even though the original is still ultimately seen as a classic in the same way Star Wars is, I would rather Rocky had just remained a classic 1970's character drama that won the best picture Oscar and never been sequelised. But even Star Wars is much more extreme than this, because of all the comic books, novels, RPG games, card games, video games, and the neverending stream of merchandise. Back to the Future, Godfather and Indiana Jones never endured a fraction of the fall that Star Wars does, and even those series have only three movies, none of which are flat-out bad, in the same way that the OOT did. If it were 1983 I would vote no, the sequels did some harm but they are more or less acceptable, but in 2007 my vote is yes, Star Wars is now more comparable to Star Trek than to Godfather as a franchise.
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The difference is SW'77 is the only original movie in the history of movies, that won't be seen first by most new fans, as now it is part 4 of 6.

That puts the movie in a totally different context, storywise, effectswise, and tonality, because the PT was made 20 years after SW'77. Say what you want about Godfather, Rocky, BTTF, etc, all those movies will be experienced by a new generation as the first in the series, so they will see it the same way we did growing up. SW'77 will be watched as the middle chapter now by newcomers, and it will just part 4 of Anakin's story, and I believe they will be jaded when they watch it and miss the whole fun-factor the movie has because the first three take themselves way too seriously.

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Originally posted by: skyjedi2005
this question is rediculous it would be like saying you would give up godfather II and just have the godfather to get rid of the awful part III.

for the most part movie sequels are not better than the originals except for the exception of empire strikes back and godfather II, and star trek II.


I don't think Star Trek should really be allowed in the whole "movies whose sequels were better" list since I think all 9 of the sequels, as well as a good quantity of episode from every series of ST were actually considerably better than Star Trek: The Motion Picture, which I felt was just plain bad.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I think my "yes" vote is strengthened by the fact that people are justifying their "no" votes with comparisons to the Matrix and Back to the Future franchises. Sure Back to the Future was fun and the Matrix was very clever, but compared to the original Star Wars, they are both pretty trivial films (in my opinion)--just good examples of blockbusters. Neither one has the cross generational, timeless aspects of the original Star Wars. They were good films, don't get me wrong, but no one is surprised that they don't show up in AFI top 100 lists, etc. As for Godfather I and II, they are both based on preexisting story by Mario Puzzo. Zombie's parallel with the Rocky franchise makes more sense to me. But the original Rocky was never changed to with the idea that Rocky IV was always intended and the filmmakers don't ever make the claim that Rocky is not the story of Rocky Balboa, but really the story of Apollo Creed, etc.

The point I am making is that Star Wars back in 1977 wasn't just another blockbuster, it was a truly special, transformative cultural event; the same cannot be said for the other films (even the Godfather, which might well be a superior film).
The movie from 1977 was called Star Wars, not Episode IV, not A New Hope, not Star Wars Episode IV: a New Hope, just plane Star Wars
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I vote no, because as flawed as ROTJ is in places, I don't know if there's a more moving moment in the OT than Luke's declaration to the Emperor:

"Never. I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

Want to book yourself or a guest on THE VFP Show? PM me!

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that is my fave line in the whole original trilogy, and the reason my avatar is from that scene, LOL.

also the duel in jedi was always my favorite because not only was Luke finally Vader's equal but bests him in a lightsaber duel.

my favorite music is the music that plays over the scene where vader says he will turn Leia to the dark side and luke flipps out and finally decides to kill him. of course he does not.

the operatic music that plays there is a lot like a wagnerian opera piece.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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A droid memory wipe.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: skyjedi2005
that is my fave line in the whole original trilogy, and the reason my avatar is from that scene, LOL.

also the duel in jedi was always my favorite because not only was Luke finally Vader's equal but bests him in a lightsaber duel.

my favorite music is the music that plays over the scene where vader says he will turn Leia to the dark side and luke flipps out and finally decides to kill him. of course he does not.

the operatic music that plays there is a lot like a wagnerian opera piece.

I agree. That music is fantastic- I think Ben Burtt said something on the '04 DVD commentary about that piece of music being one of the most requested from the trilogy. I was disappointed when I discovered it wasn't included on the original soundtrack LP when I bought it way back when.

I also love the funeral pyre scene.

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Originally posted by: DarthPoppy
I think my "yes" vote is strengthened by the fact that people are justifying their "no" votes with comparisons to the Matrix and Back to the Future franchises. Sure Back to the Future was fun and the Matrix was very clever, but compared to the original Star Wars, they are both pretty trivial films (in my opinion)--just good examples of blockbusters. Neither one has the cross generational, timeless aspects of the original Star Wars. They were good films, don't get me wrong, but no one is surprised that they don't show up in AFI top 100 lists, etc. As for Godfather I and II, they are both based on preexisting story by Mario Puzzo. Zombie's parallel with the Rocky franchise makes more sense to me. But the original Rocky was never changed to with the idea that Rocky IV was always intended and the filmmakers don't ever make the claim that Rocky is not the story of Rocky Balboa, but really the story of Apollo Creed, etc.

The point I am making is that Star Wars back in 1977 wasn't just another blockbuster, it was a truly special, transformative cultural event; the same cannot be said for the other films (even the Godfather, which might well be a superior film).


I agree in the sense that The original film tells a complete story with a beginning, a middle, and an end, and that if ESB did not exist, the original film's impact would still be enormous. The whole Star Wars UNIVERSE, however, would not exist without ESB and ROTJ and everything that came after, but given the amount of negativity associated with some aspects of it, I just might...

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death