Originally posted by: CO
JR, let me try to shed some light on the ESB/ROTJ story change issue. I love the OT, but SW'77 is my favorite of the 6 movies let alone of all-time for me, not ESB, so I am going to give you a view from someone who saw SW in 1977, and is able to see the story evolve on the bigscreen, not just by heresay or message boards.
SW & ESB/ROTJ are totally different animals, as they can work as a trilogy, but if you really dissect the story in ESB/ROTJ is TOTALLY different then the story that was put on screen in 1977. I love ESB, I think it is a great movie, but I am not the biggest fan of 'I am your father!' Now you are probably saying to yourself, "How can you not love that, it is the greatest twist in the history of movies?" Because it contradicts the original movie, plain & simple, and what happened is it changed SW from a macro story about Luke & the Rebels fighting the Empire in the struggle for the galaxy to a micro story of Luke/Vader which is so prevailent in ROTJ, and even more about Anakin in the PT.
What we are all trying to say is that "I am your father" is a killer plot twist, and I was as stunned as everyone sitting there as an 8 year old in 1980, but if you look at how Lucas took the OT, via ROTJ storyline, and even futher the PT, he got away with the original storyline that made SW'77 so great.
The reason I love SW'77 is because there isn't any grey areas to it, it is such a simple story of good vs evil, in the end that what makes it great. When you get to ROTJ, all of the sudden you have this moral tale of redemption, and redemption means something different to each person. But with ROTJ, Vader was still a minor character to Lukes story, so you really didn't have to examine his sins to enjoy the movie, it was Luke who threw down his saber, so you could gravitate to that act as the moral of the story.
With the PT, the story is clearly about Vader, and it is a grey one at that. Many people have a problem with him killing children, choking his wife, and then smiling as a force ghost at the end. Many Christians will side with Lucas and say EVERY sin is forgivable, so he has every right to sit next to Yoda/Kenobi in ROTJ. My whole point is that SW was not a grey area story back in 1977, and once Vader uttered those words to Luke on Bespin, the whole story & moral of the OT/Saga/ or whatever you want to call it changed, and that is why you have so many people like myself who questioned if ESB went the way of Vader, being the one killed Vader, and Luke taking a revenge angle, ala Conan the Barbarian/Braveheart storyline.
Originally posted by: JediRandy
So ESB is "good"? Not great, not the best SW film... just "good". Anyway isn't ESB the one with the least GL interference? At least that's what is always thrown around SW message boards.
So ESB is "good"? Not great, not the best SW film... just "good". Anyway isn't ESB the one with the least GL interference? At least that's what is always thrown around SW message boards.
JR, let me try to shed some light on the ESB/ROTJ story change issue. I love the OT, but SW'77 is my favorite of the 6 movies let alone of all-time for me, not ESB, so I am going to give you a view from someone who saw SW in 1977, and is able to see the story evolve on the bigscreen, not just by heresay or message boards.
SW & ESB/ROTJ are totally different animals, as they can work as a trilogy, but if you really dissect the story in ESB/ROTJ is TOTALLY different then the story that was put on screen in 1977. I love ESB, I think it is a great movie, but I am not the biggest fan of 'I am your father!' Now you are probably saying to yourself, "How can you not love that, it is the greatest twist in the history of movies?" Because it contradicts the original movie, plain & simple, and what happened is it changed SW from a macro story about Luke & the Rebels fighting the Empire in the struggle for the galaxy to a micro story of Luke/Vader which is so prevailent in ROTJ, and even more about Anakin in the PT.
What we are all trying to say is that "I am your father" is a killer plot twist, and I was as stunned as everyone sitting there as an 8 year old in 1980, but if you look at how Lucas took the OT, via ROTJ storyline, and even futher the PT, he got away with the original storyline that made SW'77 so great.
The reason I love SW'77 is because there isn't any grey areas to it, it is such a simple story of good vs evil, in the end that what makes it great. When you get to ROTJ, all of the sudden you have this moral tale of redemption, and redemption means something different to each person. But with ROTJ, Vader was still a minor character to Lukes story, so you really didn't have to examine his sins to enjoy the movie, it was Luke who threw down his saber, so you could gravitate to that act as the moral of the story.
With the PT, the story is clearly about Vader, and it is a grey one at that. Many people have a problem with him killing children, choking his wife, and then smiling as a force ghost at the end. Many Christians will side with Lucas and say EVERY sin is forgivable, so he has every right to sit next to Yoda/Kenobi in ROTJ. My whole point is that SW was not a grey area story back in 1977, and once Vader uttered those words to Luke on Bespin, the whole story & moral of the OT/Saga/ or whatever you want to call it changed, and that is why you have so many people like myself who questioned if ESB went the way of Vader, being the one killed Vader, and Luke taking a revenge angle, ala Conan the Barbarian/Braveheart storyline.
I'm not arguing about story, about the PT being good, etc. I'm simply saying I'm blown away that people would consider (or even be fine with) ESB "going away" if it meant no more post ANH Star Wars.
If being flabbergasted by that train of thought is out of line then this place is more militant that I thought it was. That's Basher Sanctuary level stuff... (hence MeBeFanEditor chiming in)