Originally posted by: lordjedi
No, there were plenty of rules in place. Anakin bitched about the rules from time to time, and his elders and peers restated the rules for audience members who didn't catch on right away. There was no punishment because the violations weren't known to those in authority. They remained unknown because Anakin worked very hard to keep his relationship with Padme a secret; he did that because he was afraid of the punishment for violating the rules. That's how punishments work: They either deter behavior or they make offenders offend much more carefully.
And it probably wasn't obvious that he was falling in love with Padme. The Jedi didn't seem to know very much about love. We already know Obi-wan could read Anakin about as well as I read Linear B. (That is, not at all.) The Jedi council was composed mostly of nonhumans, of whom probably very few could pick up on subtle human behavioral cues. Even when Obi-wan did figure out there was an Annie Jr. on the way, he couldn't chalk it up to something so uncouth as love. When he confronts Padme before stowing away on her starship, he doesn't say, "You're in love, aren't you?" He says, "Anakin's the father, isn't he?" He doesn't consider the relationship that exists between these people, only the biological consequence of their coupling. Someone who believes fervently that desire is Wrong and unwittingly reduces a years-long relationship to "He knocked ya up" probably doesn't have the necessary empathy to pick up when a person is falling in love.
The Jedi survived for 1000 generations with these rules (Obi-Wan's words), there's no reason to believe that Anakin's turn was due to anything other than being "the chosen one", so no one seemed to want to give him some discipline.
Originally posted by: Scruffy
When ANH was produced, the tenets of Jedi Knighthood were ambiguous, but the Jedi could have children and could make decisions regarding the upbringing of their children, up to and including how they will be raised in the event that both parents die.
They could? According to what? As far as I've ever known, nothing outside of their abilities was ever even alluded to.
Anakin Skywalker had a son and, according to Obi-wan, wanted his son to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. That means that Jedi can have children and direct the upbringing of those children, even after their death through informal or formal last wishes. You can retcon it by saying Obi-wan was lying the whole time, but until the PT there was no need to retcon it. Even if Obi-wan was lying, he was telling a lie that he thought was palatable. If the Jedi were notoriously celibate, as they are in the PT, he would not have told Luke that his father was a Jedi. That lie would invite dangerous questions. He would've told a more serendipitous lie. The obvious interpretation of the scene was that Anakin expected to have children, wanted one to be a Jedi, and that Obi-wan found nothing odd about this.
I disagree completely. ROTS gave us a look at what happens when you treat someone as a saviour, but put no rules in place on them or give them things to do that you clearly should not be doing. Sending Anakin off to protect Padme shouldn't have been done since it was obvious he was falling in love. That and what just seemed like a sheer lack of punishment for breaking the rules were the big problem.
When ANH was produced, the tenets of Jedi Knighthood were ambiguous, but the Jedi could have children and could make decisions regarding the upbringing of their children, up to and including how they will be raised in the event that both parents die.
They could? According to what? As far as I've ever known, nothing outside of their abilities was ever even alluded to.
Anakin Skywalker had a son and, according to Obi-wan, wanted his son to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. That means that Jedi can have children and direct the upbringing of those children, even after their death through informal or formal last wishes. You can retcon it by saying Obi-wan was lying the whole time, but until the PT there was no need to retcon it. Even if Obi-wan was lying, he was telling a lie that he thought was palatable. If the Jedi were notoriously celibate, as they are in the PT, he would not have told Luke that his father was a Jedi. That lie would invite dangerous questions. He would've told a more serendipitous lie. The obvious interpretation of the scene was that Anakin expected to have children, wanted one to be a Jedi, and that Obi-wan found nothing odd about this.
Originally posted by: Scruffy
Revenge of the Sith didn't particularly change anything, but it gave us a look at the effect this upbringing has on a young man.
Revenge of the Sith didn't particularly change anything, but it gave us a look at the effect this upbringing has on a young man.
I disagree completely. ROTS gave us a look at what happens when you treat someone as a saviour, but put no rules in place on them or give them things to do that you clearly should not be doing. Sending Anakin off to protect Padme shouldn't have been done since it was obvious he was falling in love. That and what just seemed like a sheer lack of punishment for breaking the rules were the big problem.
No, there were plenty of rules in place. Anakin bitched about the rules from time to time, and his elders and peers restated the rules for audience members who didn't catch on right away. There was no punishment because the violations weren't known to those in authority. They remained unknown because Anakin worked very hard to keep his relationship with Padme a secret; he did that because he was afraid of the punishment for violating the rules. That's how punishments work: They either deter behavior or they make offenders offend much more carefully.
And it probably wasn't obvious that he was falling in love with Padme. The Jedi didn't seem to know very much about love. We already know Obi-wan could read Anakin about as well as I read Linear B. (That is, not at all.) The Jedi council was composed mostly of nonhumans, of whom probably very few could pick up on subtle human behavioral cues. Even when Obi-wan did figure out there was an Annie Jr. on the way, he couldn't chalk it up to something so uncouth as love. When he confronts Padme before stowing away on her starship, he doesn't say, "You're in love, aren't you?" He says, "Anakin's the father, isn't he?" He doesn't consider the relationship that exists between these people, only the biological consequence of their coupling. Someone who believes fervently that desire is Wrong and unwittingly reduces a years-long relationship to "He knocked ya up" probably doesn't have the necessary empathy to pick up when a person is falling in love.
The Jedi survived for 1000 generations with these rules (Obi-Wan's words), there's no reason to believe that Anakin's turn was due to anything other than being "the chosen one", so no one seemed to want to give him some discipline.
I'm not sure I follow. Who would have disciplined Anakin, and for what? His affair was unknown to his superiors, except to Obi-wan near the end. His overreaction on Tatooine was unknown to his superiors; it's not Padme's job to discipline him. (Not without negotiationg the scene and agreeing on a safe word, anyway.) He really doesn't live an undisciplined life; he's apparently monogamous, has no vices, advanced rapidly through a difficult career, and maintained a secret second life. He did most of that while fighting as some kind of special operative and/or officer in a war. You don't do that if you can't stick to certain rules. Sure, he freaked out a little when his mother was raped to death or when he didn't get a promotion, but those are isolated events and not patterns of behavior. The pattern is one of a very disciplined man.
And could you supply a quote in context for that surviving a thousand generations under the late-Republic era rules? I don't own the PT, and I'd like to read that scene. Thanks. (Even if the Jedi did survive for ~25ka under the late-Republic system of rules, we don't know that they prospered continuously the whole time. There could have been many, many failed Jedi like Darth Vader that simply aren't mentioned because without the backing of the Supreme Chancellor they were quietly killed.)