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Why the hell did the lazy Emperor even think Luke would join the dark side and become his new apprentice?!

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He just sits there on his throne being a smug fuck, occasionally dispensing some dumb, little threats. He could have had more luck baking Luke an especially, dark chocolate cake!

Even though the prequels are horrible, at least the emperor made more of an effort luring Anakin to the dark side. Maybe after this, he thought every Skywalker would be the highly suggestible, retarded fool.

What do you think? Am I right or wrong?

I still love Return of the jedi, don't worry. =)
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I thought the Emperor was pretty creepy, and it's still a great performance. He can be lazy like an old man cos he yields such great power, and his sardonic tone is fantastic IMO.

Palpatine on the other hand ... I liked the subtle manipulations, but, really, the Jedi came across as a bunch of bureaucrats unable to detect the single most darkest Sith right in their midst. I had hoped for a clever clone twist, but alas, all I got was "Qui Gonn taught me how to cheat death" and frickin midichlorians. And that stupid prophecy. I hate prophecies, but I do like the way Anakin restored balance to the force by chucking the Emperor down a handy shaft thus fulfilling the prophecy. I guess Plagueous never taught Palpatine levitation then ....
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I thought the Emperor was pretty creepy, and it's still a great performance. He can be lazy like an old man cos he yields such great power, and his sardonic tone is fantastic IMO.


Off course. It is a great performance, but that's not the point. The point is, the emperor doesn't put any effort into turning Luke to the dark side, it's like he doesn't really care. I'm sure creepiness and sardonicism alone can't reverse somebody, if anything it should make you stay the fuck away from that path! Luke seems like a pretty normal, farmboy sorta guy, apart from having a lil bro on sis action, don't think creepiness and sardonicism are his game.
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I was thinking that too until I watched ROTJ again a few nights ago. Palpatine continually says, "It is unavoidable." He doesn't have to do anything. He's already done all the plotting. He has brought Luke where he needs to be with the people he needs to be with and to witness what he needs to witness (the destruction of the Rebel fleet). All Palpatine has to do is watch (with glee) the resulting screw-ups. And he does. Luke does give into his anger and almost does kill Vader. It's almost like a Roman emperor pitting his two best gladiators together. It doesn't really matter to him who wins. If Vader wins, Luke is dead, and their biggest threat is gone. If Luke wins, the Emperor gets a shiny new apprentice.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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If Luke wins, the Emperor gets a shiny new apprentice.


I don't believe that one bit, actually. There's no reason to believe Luke would ever join the emperor, even if he killed his father, Darth Vader (lol), using the dark side of the force. I'd reckon Luke would rather be killed and tortured by the emperor than join him. Throughout the entire tirlogy there is no indication of Luke descending to the dark side, with perhaps the exception of the philosophic cave meeting that took place in ESB and maybe some of the anti-Obi-wan-ness. If George Lucas wanted us to believe Luke could turn to the dark side, he should have made a better case imo. Still, this is only a very, very minor flaw for me.

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Guys, you have to put in context of the darkside with the OT, and the saga 1-6, as they are two different ideologies Lucas was portraying, and this is what happens when you change a story 20 years later.

The darkside as portrayed in the OT was about power, as you could feel it as it takes over your body. Just watch Luke as he is tempted by The Emperor in ROTJ, it is overcoming him, and he is becoming this powerful mother f-er, and that is the true trap of the darkside, it is like a drug, the high you get from it is tough to give up.

Now fast forward to the PT, the darkside has a totally different context now, as it isn't about Anakin becoming more powerful, it is about him being duped or lied to. Anakin never becomes more powerful once he takes the pledge to be the Emperor's apprentice, as it never overcomes him, he is just tricked into thinking it will. For the rest of ROTS, he is no more powerful then he was before The Emperor called him Darth Vader, cause he essentially loses to Kenobi in a fight, as you see nothing in that fight to prove that the darkside has made him oh so powerful.

ROTJ and ESB are just about temptation and feeling the darkside, and knowing once you go down that road, it will overcome you and you will be much more powerful, hence Luke kicks Vaders ass in ROTJ. The PT darkside is just about a trick by Palpatine, and that is why it comes off so lame, cause it doesn't match up with 4-6 when you try to watch them in the same context of one movie saga.
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As Luke said, "Your overconfidence is your weakness." And it was. Elegant, succinct writing.

If GL wrote ROTJ today, not only would he replace the Ewoks with Gungans, but the dialogue between Luke and Palps would go like this:

"Luke, you are destined to join the dark side of the force and become a Sith like your father became a Sith before you. Only together can we discover the mystery of how to bring your mother back to life. But to do that you must first kill your father, just as he killed children in order to become strong in the Force. Only then will you be strong enough in the dark side to save your dead mother's life."

"I do not agree with the logic behind your statement, Your Highness. From my point of view that is an evil statement. Soon I will be dead and you will also be dead, and my father will also be dead. You both will be dead along with me. We all will be dead together. Your overconfidence in your plan to lure me to the dark side and have me kill my father to take his place because of the psychological issues with me not knowing my parents growing up while you have had a vision of the future, which is always in motion anyway, is your weakness."

"Your faith in the good side of the Force, and that it will not only protect you but also your friends as they execute their battle plans on the moon below us is yours."

I swear, GL wrote the Prequels in Engrish sometimes.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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CO, do you really think we're supposed to believe that the dark side is more powerful? I mean, Yoda point-blank refuted that when Luke asked him in ESB. Unless of course, you just mean a quick power-up, rather than an overall higher threshhold of power...

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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ADM, I honestly think you should do a fan project where you "prequelize" the OT. You could go through the whole trilogy and rewrite the dialogue in subtitles. It would be funnier than Backstroke of the West.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Excellent response, CO. Maybe I just wanted to see little more of that 'drug' you're talking about, but now that I think about it, perhaps it's better the way it turned out, leaving us something to the imagination instead of treating the audience like dumb shit as is the case with the prequel trilogy. Actually, you've about totally convinced me of the original trilogy's brilliance again, hah!

Wish I could write some more, but I gotta go to college. Catch you guys later.
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
CO, do you really think we're supposed to believe that the dark side is more powerful? I mean, Yoda point-blank refuted that when Luke asked him in ESB. Unless of course, you just mean a quick power-up, rather than an overall higher threshhold of power...


How do you know Yoda isn't lying to Luke in ESB? Why would Yoda tell him that the Darkside is stronger, wouldn't that make a young student like Luke more eager to possibly embrace it? Yoda sends Luke to the cave to teach him a lesson, and I think Yoda does that with the power of the force too. Remember, you can't think in terms of 1,2,3 when you watch the OT, and the power of the darkside is alot more respected.

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Originally posted by: Major fatal Moebius
If Luke wins, the Emperor gets a shiny new apprentice.


I don't believe that one bit, actually. There's no reason to believe Luke would ever join the emperor, even if he killed his father, Darth Vader (lol), using the dark side of the force. I'd reckon Luke would rather be killed and tortured by the emperor than join him. Throughout the entire tirlogy there is no indication of Luke descending to the dark side, with perhaps the exception of the philosophic cave meeting that took place in ESB and maybe some of the anti-Obi-wan-ness. If George Lucas wanted us to believe Luke could turn to the dark side, he should have made a better case imo. Still, this is only a very, very minor flaw for me.


Here's my thoughts on it.

Darth Vader was using Lukes thoughts against him to manipulate him into turning to the dark side by giving in to his anger. When he mentions says "you have a twin sister, if you won't turn perhaps she will," that gets to Luke. He goes nuts and gets angry, he is giving in to his anger, making his fail turn. He uses it to make his more powerful, and the result is he ignites his saber and charges vader with anger, knocking him to the ground and cutting off his hand. That's the final turn of Luke. Only when he looks at his fathers robotic wrist stub and then his own robotic hand does he release what he is becoming. His father. By giving into his anger, he is becoming the very person he is trying to save. That's were the emperor had his overconfidence. He didn't see luke stopping like that. Luke showed more inner strength than the emperor thought by reeling himself back in, calming down letting vader live and proclaiming he is a jedi.

I always felt the idea was is he had killed vader in anger, he would be lost and would have turned because he would have fully given in. By stopping just short of it, however, he didn't turn, he showed his inner strength as a jedi. He didn't give in. I think the emperor was so smug because of his overconfidence. That overconfidence is shown by the fact he could not sense the good in vader. Only Luke sensed it. The emperor was so sure of himself, he couldn't sense that little bit left. He was sure Luke would turn with poking and proding. He felt he was like his father in that regard, and once he started the turn he wouldn't stop. Luke, as we know, shoulded him otherwise.
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The dark side is "quicker, easier, more seductive". It does take a certain other strength to continually "do the right thing" in an ego-less manner, without thanks and without recognition.
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
CO, do you really think we're supposed to believe that the dark side is more powerful? I mean, Yoda point-blank refuted that when Luke asked him in ESB. Unless of course, you just mean a quick power-up, rather than an overall higher threshhold of power...


According to Lucas, it is, at least in the short term. Don't believe me? Listen to the commentary on AOTC.

That one single comment by Lucas pisses me off to no end to this day. That stupid mofo took Yoda's remark about the Dark Side and f'ed it all over the place.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: CO
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
CO, do you really think we're supposed to believe that the dark side is more powerful? I mean, Yoda point-blank refuted that when Luke asked him in ESB. Unless of course, you just mean a quick power-up, rather than an overall higher threshhold of power...


How do you know Yoda isn't lying to Luke in ESB? Why would Yoda tell him that the Darkside is stronger, wouldn't that make a young student like Luke more eager to possibly embrace it? Yoda sends Luke to the cave to teach him a lesson, and I think Yoda does that with the power of the force too. Remember, you can't think in terms of 1,2,3 when you watch the OT, and the power of the darkside is alot more respected.


I really don't think that, overall, the dark side is stronger, but it's "quicker" like Yoda said. You channel that emotion, that anger, and the resulting power gained is, of course, there. But it's like the difference between taking steroids and working out for real. The steroids will give you want you want, but you're at the mercy of that "drug", like you stated yourself. I honestly don't think Yoda was lying about what he told Luke, though. And you should know me better than to presume that I'm thinking in terms of the prequels when I come to this conclusion.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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because Anakin was an idiot, so Palpatine thought the same thing would apply to his son.

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have you ever heard "power corrupts. and absolute power corrupts absolutely" lucas i believe was aware of this phrase while writing the trilogy and the prequels.


hell the whole original nature of the dark side of the force is the more it is used the heavier it ways upon you and becomes more addictive.

Lucas obviously stole the nature of the one ring from tolkien's lord of the rings for the dark side, and tolkien borrowed the curse theme from northern myth and infused it with the symbolism of mans fallen nature.

even a non christian such as lucas must be aware of the temptation scenes in literature such as paradise lost. he could not have been unaware of the belief of sin to christians even though he does not believe such concepts.

anakin's sin is essential that of adams the desire for knowledge which in the end leads to power and corruption.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
"I do not agree with the logic behind your statement, Your Highness. From my point of view that is an evil statement. Soon I will be dead and you will also be dead, and my father will also be dead. You both will be dead along with me. We all will be dead together. Your overconfidence in your plan to lure me to the dark side and have me kill my father to take his place because of the psychological issues with me not knowing my parents growing up while you have had a vision of the future, which is always in motion anyway, is your weakness."

lol

Originally posted by: miker71
The dark side is "quicker, easier, more seductive". It does take a certain other strength to continually "do the right thing" in an ego-less manner, without thanks and without recognition.


I think this approach to the force should be closest to the truth (as far as the Star Wars universe goes). The dark side of the force seems like it has more power in an immediate sense, but it is wild and self destructive in the long run. The good side of the force, however, accomplishes more in the long run and is therefore stronger in that sense. Yet, can the good accomplish anything without the bad?

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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The real moron of ROTJ is Vader. In ESB, he wants Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor. He's plotting and subversive. All of a sudden in ROTJ he doesn't want to pursue that any more. He's just going along with the motions and doing what the Emperor asks. To top it off, he knowingly delivers a replacement apprentice to the Emperor. All this because "the power of the Dark Side" compels him to obey. Um, okay.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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The real moron of ROTJ is Vader. In ESB, he wants Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor. He's plotting and subversive. All of a sudden in ROTJ he doesn't want to pursue that any more. He's just going along with the motions and doing what the Emperor asks. To top it off, he knowingly delivers a replacement apprentice to the Emperor. All this because "the power of the Dark Side" compels him to obey. Um, okay.


Hah, true. I guess this is the sorta thing you get when George Lucas writes stuff halfassed, right?
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Originally posted by: Erikstormtrooper
The real moron of ROTJ is Vader. In ESB, he wants Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor. He's plotting and subversive. All of a sudden in ROTJ he doesn't want to pursue that any more. He's just going along with the motions and doing what the Emperor asks. To top it off, he knowingly delivers a replacement apprentice to the Emperor. All this because "the power of the Dark Side" compels him to obey. Um, okay.


Are you talking 1-6 or just 4-6 storyline? Cause if you are talking 1-6, the 'I must obey my master' line is very weak. But I always found that line very striking before the PT was made, and always thought that The Emperor almost imprisoned Vader with his power from the darkside, using his lightning. I envisoned Vader trying to overthrow The Emperor by himself sometime before Episode IV, and The Emperor putting an utter ass whooping on him with his lightning making Vader scared to ever cross him again, until he thinks Luke would help him in ESB.

Now with the PT, and the fact that Dooku uses Lightning, which totally demeans the power of Lightning now, that line, "I must obey my master' is lame and really doesn't mean anything, cause Anakin only obeyed Palpatine to save Padme, why would he do it after she was dead? Oh man, the PT so fucked up the story of the OT. Good job George.

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I was talking more about the 1-6 story line. Among other lost opportunities, the prequels could have shown what the power of the Dark Side really was.

In the 4-6 story line, the whole scenario in ROTJ works a little better. We have to imagine what the power of the Dark Side is. We dont have the Sith "rule of two", so we don't know the Emperor plans to replace Vader until the end, and this makes Vader less of a willing participant in his own demise.

Lucas bothered to change dialog on the ESB DVD so that Vader is trying to hide Luke from the Emperor. But he did nothing to change Vader's motives in ROTJ.

The more I think about this stuff, the more I get depressed.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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To stay on topic with the thread, the emperor, as Luke said, is too over confident. That led to his undoing by Luke and Anakin.
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Originally posted by: Erikstormtrooper
I was talking more about the 1-6 story line. Among other lost opportunities, the prequels could have shown what the power of the Dark Side really was.

In the 4-6 story line, the whole scenario in ROTJ works a little better. We have to imagine what the power of the Dark Side is. We dont have the Sith "rule of two", so we don't know the Emperor plans to replace Vader until the end, and this makes Vader less of a willing participant in his own demise.

Lucas bothered to change dialog on the ESB DVD so that Vader is trying to hide Luke from the Emperor. But he did nothing to change Vader's motives in ROTJ.

The more I think about this stuff, the more I get depressed.


Before the prequels, the dark side seemed to be much easier to fall to. So the emperor didn't have to work as hard, because it didn't take all that much. Get Luke to strike down Vader in anger, or something similar, and that would be it. The dark side was very potent, and very controlling.

Then we had the prequels. In that, Anakin can basically be constantly angry and self-centered, cut down an entire tribe of sandpeople in a fit of uncontrollable rage, decapitate Count Dooku in cold blood, and he's still good, still not dark side. (I'm not even counting the stuff in the Clone Wars cartoons) For him to finally become a sith, he had to take an oath and willing turn evil. The dark side seems to be very difficult to fall to in the prequels. I would think that by prequel standards, Luke could of killed Vader and the Emperor himself, with no dark side troubles.
Of course, by OT standards, Anakin would of fallen sometime during AOTC.
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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
As Luke said, "Your overconfidence is your weakness." And it was. Elegant, succinct writing.

If GL wrote ROTJ today, not only would he replace the Ewoks with Gungans, but the dialogue between Luke and Palps would go like this:
"Luke, you are destined to join the dark side of the force and become a Sith like your father became a Sith before you. Only together can we discover the mystery of how to bring your mother back to life. But to do that you must first kill your father, just as he killed children in order to become strong in the Force. Only then will you be strong enough in the dark side to save your dead mother's life."
"I do not agree with the logic behind your statement, Your Highness. From my point of view that is an evil statement. Soon I will be dead and you will also be dead, and my father will also be dead. You both will be dead along with me. We all will be dead together. Your overconfidence in your plan to lure me to the dark side and have me kill my father to take his place because of the psychological issues with me not knowing my parents growing up while you have had a vision of the future, which is always in motion anyway, is your weakness."
"Your faith in the good side of the Force, and that it will not only protect you but also your friends as they execute their battle plans on the moon below us is yours."

I swear, GL wrote the Prequels in Engrish sometimes.


"Your fleet is lost & all your base are belong to us. There is no chance to escape make your time, my young apprentice."

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